Eagledad

Hi All I'm a little lost on what National wants of WB. When I ask, I get different answers. I did not think the old Boy Scout Wood Badge contributed much to helping adults run a troop. I had fun and took away a few new ideas from the old course but I went in with several years of Troop experience and was only looking to build on my experiece. It was not a mountain top experience, but an addition of training. I feel Wood Badge was design for those with some experience to bring perspective to their WB experience. On the other hand the Cub Scout WB sounded more like the type a of training a new leader needed to be a better leader. It was an intense week of Cub Scouting presentations, applications and how to work hands on with Cub age boys. I think this is what the new WB program is now, am I wrong? Just last night I talked on the phone with a Troop leader who is sending me six brand new adults for SM Specific this weekend so they can get ILOS and be ready to attend WB in the Fall. Is that a good thing? I would say no two years ago, but now I think it is. Other than WB, I don't think the BSA teaches how to work with boys. I will have to wait and see the new course, if I ever get invited. But there is some concern on my part that how much training can we do before VOLUNTEERS stop volunteering. Our council is even REQUIRING adult training at our JLTC course now. I implemented that requirement and I am pretty sure that is the coming trend because we learned a couple of years ago that JLT is worthless if the adults are clueless about the training youth leadership. So where does it all stop? I am passionate about Boy Scouting. There is no other program out there that does as good a job as Boy Scouting for building character in boys and preparing them for life as an adult. But I do feel that fewer adults understand how or why, and because of that, the program is migrating away from the very attributes that make it great. The only way to save the program is educating the adults. While I am more of a purest who believes that experience builds competence, I hope WB works. Barry

Aero Engineer for the Research Division of the FAA. Barry

>>If you do not know what the troop needs, your ticket is going to have to be written either for the council or the Cub Scout side. You would have to be in a troop for at least a year to see what needed to be improved.changed/fixed. I would suggest you wait

>>The trouble spot is middle school. Middle school (ages 12-14) is the time when "coolness" becomes life.

>>If we could register another dozen men like him the program would be infinitely better off. But I really don't know where we could find even one more, at least right now.

>>Putting people into the class on a mandatory basis would only serve to alter the Sprit of Wood Badge in a less than positive manner.>Maybe there is a SM or SPL for woodbadge reading this and can take my criticisms and use them to make their program better.

>I think having a female den leader makes the boys learn respect for women. My cubs treat me with the greatest respect as I do them. < Hi All When I reverse roles and think about my daughter learning how to be a woman of character and integrity from a man, I cringe. I have no desire even attempting letting her learning womanhood from a man. We humans learn 80 to 90 percent of our behaviors from those we see and want to duplicate. A boy will respect the woman for her skills, but that will not have the same impact on him as man with the same skills because we naturally duplicate the behaviors from those we would like to become. Here is a test, pick a sport with an equal male and female sports hero standing next to each other. Then let boys and girls go talk with them. Who do you think they will run to greet? A woman can be as good a Scoutmaster, if not better, as a man in all but one area, "Modeling a man of character and integrity". Is there a difference? You bet, boys and girls are different and mature differently. For normal growth in behavoir, boys need male role models just as much a girls need female role models. Watching the male SM respect a woman of equal or greater skills has a lot more positive character impact on a boy than a woman SM respecting a male of equal or greater skills. It's not about equal respect or skills; it's about human nature and genders duplicating genders. It's not really a choice, it is our nature. Now if a troop has trouble accepting female leaders, then they are missing the big picture and the scouts will miss out from the opportunity. As for more women in Cubs, a lot of it has to do with the structure of the program. Up until lately, den meetings worked naturaly with stay home moms. And, women are comfortable with the cub type activities, at least until Webelos. But at least in our area, I see a lot more dads taking on the Den leader roles. I think it's more because mothers are working now and den meetings are being planned for the evening instead of after school. Just a few thoughts. I love this Scouting stuff Barry

Hi all I agree, the course is well worth the price and I have applied it to my own personal life. But, we have been told that eventually any adult who wants to be a SM will be required to take the course. Boy, I know some SMs in parts of Oklahoma that can't handle that cost. Can the perceived cost prevent good adults from considering the job? If the course eventally becomes required, I believe something will have to be considered at the Council level. I don't know what, maybe scholarships, discounts or even free admitance for the SM. It's a tough call for me because I think this new course is the right course for developing adults into a Master Scouters. Opinions, ideas? Barry

I just got a good deal on the Dana Design Glacier Internal Frame Pack from Northern Mountain. It is a $300 pack for $179 and well worth it. But we went on a Philmont shakedown last week and I borrowed a Dana Design Terraframe for my son who outgrew his Jansport. During the hike, he complained the Terraframe was too small, so we traded packs. Wow, Very comfortable and now I'm thinking I should have saved $80 and bought it instead of my internal Frame. I've also notice that Sierra Trading Post was selling the Kelty Tioga for around $85. That is another great pack for about half the price. I could not find it on the Web site, but it is in my catalog. Worth checking out. It's hard to be spending less than $100 for a good pack. Happy Trails Barry

>>What I would like to know is why woodbadge cost is so highcompared to other similar length courses. Can someone explain a basic breakdown on course costs?

>>Many kids just don't know what it is about. It needs to be packaged and sold. Good grief, people used to buy Pet Rocks because of advertising. If you can sell a rock, you can sell scouting

>>As for wearing a uniform so as to not be hassled, if wearing a uniform is a hassle, then the discipline and pride question just answered itself.

>>Maybe my 38 years of military experience has warped my thinking, but a uniform should make a statement. It should be a source of pride and discipline.>I definitely agree with the MANDATORY and AFFORDABLE.

>>The jackhammer seems to be a straight forward case of safety. You have to intervene as a scouter, as a parent you have to intervene if your own kid is involved.

Hi 1hour In general adults should only aid a any scout's performance in anything he does when his maturity and experience isn't enough to attempt the task. You said the Troop Guide does seem to have control, so it sounds like he is OK. Where you and other adults may be needed is in helping the TG learn and develop his job. One idea would be to meet a half hour before of after the meetings to ask the TGs how they are doing. Let them talk and express themselves. Then help them think of ideas to improve. Let's say all three TGs are having trouble controlling the scouts. Give them two different ideas to try. No more than two because that is too much to remember. I find most scouts only focus on one. But now you are teaching different skills and giving tools to solve problems. Sometimes the ideas won't work, so help him come up with more ideas. Your goal is to teach the scout how to control the group, teach skills and develop leadership respect without him loosing control or yelling. An example of one idea would be is have the TG to explain the important of the scout sign. To help them learn it's importance, he will put up his sign as a game through the evening and watch to see who puts up their sign the fastest. At the end of the meeting he will praise the scout, some scouts in our troop even give a prize. Another idea would be to ask another one or two older scouts help him. When he puts up his sign, the older scout put theirs up and guide the new scouts to follow. There shouldn't be any yelling or abuse of holding the sign for a time so long that it becomes more of a punishment. Make sure the TGs teach that it's meant to get attention and to respect the speaker. I'm sure several here have other ideas. Then stand back and observe to see how the new ideas work. At the next meeting ask the TGs how they did. This gets them thinking on their feet. I said earlier to keep them busy. Our TGs have enough on their agenda that he has to keep moving. Sometimes it's hard to know what they should be doing. But look at the TG as a trainer. So train the new scouts how to complete the "Scout" advancement badge. Our guys have to request a SM Conference and a BOR. SO our TG teaches how to do this and helps each new scout their first time. He teaches how to use the Scout Handbook. Out Troop Guides teach how to set up the tent, and troop gear. Usually their first campout is at night and we teach them the basics of setting up camp so they can do it in the dark with some confidence. This is all done in the first six weeks and it is a very busy six weeks. By the time, the guys are starting to settle down, in most cases. This is also very good practice for you in boy run. Observe without interfering, ask the scout questions that help him think new ideas to work his problems and set goals, support him to raise his confidence. I promise, you will learn as much as he does and it will feel good when you go home that night saying you love this scouting stuff. Is this too much to fast? Barry

Hi All Some good advice is being given. I am surprised though, I have never heard of a scout being asked to leave along with the parents. I agree, I think only the COR can ask you leave, and it make sense that council has to be notified. But to ask the scout to leave? Is there more to this story? Barry

Hi All One common misconception that comes to mind is many of the Scoutmasters in our District sign merit badge cards after the scouts completed the requirements. Policy is the SM signs it before the scout calls and meets the counselor. Barry

Hi I'm a little confused, but I think you are asking if you should fill the empty slot with an adult or scout. I'm always for giving a scout a wonderful experience, but I also enjoy giving a father the opportunity to watch his son in action. You need to evaluate if the adult will add or take away from the crews experience. I had three crews go to Philmont three years ago. Two of the three crews had complaints about the adults. In one crew, five scouts quit our troop after the trek. Yes, he was that bad. The one crew that had no problems only had two adults who were not active leaders in the troop. They were two dads who had never been on a campout with their sons and took advantage of the opportunity to have a once in a lifetime experience with their son. Since the adults had never camped with scouts, the scouts had to take care of them. Everyone in this crew had a great time. My older son who was 16 at the time says now that he learned a lot about patience and serving from that trek. I once heard that Philmont was looking to make some changes because the number one complaint from the scouts was adults taking over the crews. As far as I know, nothing was changed though, I am not sure what you could do. So adults can make or break the experience. We also had a slot open a month ago and I talked one of our 18 year old ASMs into going. With my 20 year old son and this 18 year old ASM going as two of the four adults, many scouts have commented they wished they had signed up with our crew. As for me, I get to watch both my sons in action. I love this scouting stuff. When are you going, we will be there the last two weeks of June. Barry

You can also check out this site to see if it has something that will work for you. http://users.aol.com/coffeeweb/LO/pl.htm Barry

Well I was hopeing. This is a big issue around here. A local church had a van that crashed and killed several youth on their on a Mexico Mission Trip. It appears the driver feel asleep. While it was no fault of his own, the organizer of that trip is a father of three scouts in our Troop. We have a large group of older scouts and we had to set some kind of policy the adults could feel comfortable with. Our CC felt certain she saw a BSA policy of 21 somewhere but couldn't find it. Kind of hits close to me. My older son is almost 20 and was thinking he'd help drive to Philmont this summer. He will have to wait. Thanks for the information. Barry

>>but not with other scouts in the car,unless they are over 21 and are listed on the tour permit.

I've been on a couple forums for about 8 years, I hope you don't mind some ideas from them. -SPL handing out advancment patches to scouts at end of meetings. -SPL introducing scouts to the BOR. -Troop Guide Program -New Scout ASM -Older scout program -Camping without Patrol Boxes. -Night Camporee Barry

Heres the deal, Boy run and the three aims only works when scouts are mature enough to learn from their experience, good or bad. I liken this situation to putting a 12 year old in charge of a mature boy run troop 80 scouts. Nothing good would come out of that because the 12 year old doesn't have the maturity or experience to learn from his performance. Most folks who know me call me a boy run activist, so it's not that I am against boy run and letting the methods work. Truth is the methods work best when there are role models to demonstrate the program. We learn 80 to 90 percent of our behaviors and habits by what we see, not what we hear. The scouting program was design with that in mind. New scouts have not had the time to learn from role models to even understand boy run. For scouting to work best, a boy needs to be challenge to the point that struggles so can think to learn from his actions. He is forced to think. But if the challenge is so great that he is frustrated or scared and no longer having fun and dreads going to Scouts, then the challenge is too great for his maturity. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but scouting looses more scouts in the first year of a Troop program than at any other age. A friend of mine did a study and he found that a boy run troop is overwhelming to boys who are only used to adult instruction. They have to learn boy run slowly so the scouts are not overwhelmed. Its a lot of work. I don't think Bob was wrong in saying let the methods work. But methods are different for each boy and they need to applied differently for their situation and maturity. The idea of scouts listing one friend came from an ASPL in charge of moving 25 scouts into patrols. Is that boy run? I was sure a proud SM. New scouts are hard. I will say if you have them after six months, then odds are you will have them for several years. The adult and Troop Guide must work together getting the new boys comfortable with the program. The must have fun so they keep coming long enough to get over their fears and apprehensions. They can still make decisions that effect them, but they shouldnt be so responsible that if things dont work out right, like a patrol of boys not getting along, that they feel frustrated and quit coming. You wont solve all problems, but its OK to head some them off until the boy gets comfortable. After that, you in pretty good shape. Try and learn from every situation so that you do a better job next time. Sorry this is long. Barry

>>Do you let them list someone they prefer not to be with?

Hi Dan Circumstances are always different, but just last year we had one scout with learning disabilities who was picked on by two boys in his den. His dad requested that his son be placed in a different patrol. They weren't bullies to everyone, but my son was their troop guide and they did seem to focus on this one scout. We found out later that the Den leader encourage the behavior. Just a few weeks ago the dad of the learning disabled scout asked to be an ASM because their experience has been so good in the troop. What was your Ticket item? Barry