Eagledad

We use to use and liked the timberlines. Good quality, easy to set up and you can backpack with them. But you won't see that many used by troops in Oklahoma because they don't hold well in our big winds. We really liked the Timberline 4 and the back door is great, but that one is so tall compared to it's footprint that it was impossible in the wind. Most Domes will hold up pretty good in the winds. The couple things we have learned from the different tents we used are get a four corner tent because the round ones waste a lot of space. When found that four scout can fit comfortably in a four corner 10X10 but barely three fit in a 10 ft. diameter round tent. Unless you find a couple scouts who sleep in the shape of half-moons. And if possible, don't get a tent with a door where you have to step over the zipper because eventally someone will trip over the door and break the zipper. One other thing, there are some Web Sites out there that sell used or seconds. I bought a few Colemans that way and saved a lot of money. I think we are trying out some tents from tentonsale.com now, but I don't know which one or how they have been performing. Scouting Cheers Barry

>>A troop can complete the outdoor activity requirement for the Quality Unit award by doing a week at summer camp and 5 hikes, or other outdoor activities.

>>Barry, I think I aught to leave defending you to you. Sorry if I've misrepresented you in any way. You haven't said that, but I know I've been acting as if I understand your position. Hope I wasn't too far off. Mark

>>after reading my post then you missed the whole point of my post and I am quite chagrined and vexed in my inability to lucidly delineate the context of my essay.

>>But please, can we get over myth FCFY demands artificial advancement?

Great response Mark I agree with most of your reply. I don't know if what we really have here is conflict of presentations or respect of possible solutions. I do believe a forum is an avenue of presenting lots of ideas allowing the adult to determine the best possible solution to their situation. On this subject, Pack899 is concerned that the advancement is going to fast thus the quality of the program is not giving the boy the best possible program. There could be cause for concern if the scouts are not learning the skills that are presented in the advancement part of the program because the habits developed learning those skills are very important for leadership later in the scouts life. I find that most of the skills a 14 years old and above scout uses while he is a leader were learned in his first three years of scouting. If a boy is rushed through learning his knots, first-aid and cooking, he will miss out on developing the skills of setting goals, initiating a schedule to meet those goals, and the since of a accomplishment once the goal is met. Youth leaders who don't have those leadership skills tend to act lazy and need lots of support from adults. They aren't really lazy so much as they don't know how to get started. These are the scouts who tend to raise their voice under stress and dont come to as many activities because they are afraid of their performance. They fall behind in their duties and many times just don't show up. So I believe scouts skills in the first couple of years are critical. What you have to watch for Pack899 is how the Troop presents the classes and signs off on the skills. If all the scouts are herded in a room, the skills are taught and then all the scouts leave with that skill completed, then that is of some concern. Instead make an announcement that a knots class will be presented next week, next campout, on Sunday, whenever. Ask the scouts to write that down if they want to learn that skill. Now you are encouraging setting a goal and initiating on that goal. If he comes, it's on his plan, not the troops. If he comes, he will be rewarded by learning a cool new skill and eventally advancing. As he accomplishes the one goal, he should be asked (pushed a little) to set another goal. Write that goal down in his book and even suggest he prepare a plan in his head. It could be learning two more knots or getting second class. By the time he reaches first class, he will have set dozens of small goals and initiated on them dozens of times. He will have learned a few leadership habit most adults struggle with. All the troop needs to do is make sure they don't push the scout through the ranks, but instead teach the boy how to set his path and work toward his goals. The adults should care less about the scouts goals, but focus on his ability to get there by himself. You will find some boys goals will be two years in getting second class. So long as he is imitating on his plan, he is fine. Does this sound like it makes a little sense? Barry

>>Eagledad, Your entire post is based on a false premise.>Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program.>I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally>The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program.>Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"? >First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced?>The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program. >I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost?>Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves.>It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly. >In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me. >There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. > But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do. >There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them.>The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers.

>>BSA does not have any specs on ice climbing.

>>Units that use it see the difference, units that don't whine that kids have to many conflicting activities.

>>They can be very 'adult' like in their discussions.

Ah! That makes since Rooster. Still, isn't our job to help them through their struggles. I'm one to not hide tempation, but help them develope the disapline to deal with it. I don't disagree with your approach, we all have our own styles of doing this scouting stuff. Thanks for the explination. One other question, I think I've seen our scouts with them, but what are these magic cards? Scouting Cheers Barry

>>Second, I would not allow the game playing (Magic, cards, etc.) until after the last merit badge session.

Hi all Dsteeles words are golden, read his post several times. I like summer camp for new scouts because it is really their first experience learning independence. The only rules that I asked our SPL to strickly enforce were to always have a buddy and let your PL know where you are at. Other than that, this is your place to learn, play, adventure and grow. Let me ask, why are you worried about down time? What do you think down time is? One persons passion to fish is another to watch the clouds. Encourage the older scouts to work with the younger ones on advancment, but as dsteele points out, if they aren't in the mood, allow them to learn the responsibilities of expectations. I have watched troops with new adults at summer camp. Prepare yourself to NOT: Lead the troop anywhere. Not to meals, campfires, health inspection. No anywhere. The SPL is the boss, allow him to be the boss. Don't watch the performance of your scouts in classes. Don't go with them to classes, either get there before them, or afterr them, but give them a chance to walk to class themselves. Eventally you can walk because you are going the same way or you heard neat things about class. But they must feel you trust them to get there. If you don't plan to help the instructor, then don't go to class the first couples days. At some time in our sons life, we have to let them go, even if it's for an hour. Isn't this the time? Don't check on their performance as a check to see if they are doing there work. As Dsteele kind of points out, someone at home will point that out. Instead listen to what they learned. Offer to help if they need someone else, but not as the adult concerned about performance of the badge, but as the adult who wants to help them if the need a resource. Don't make up the cheers and yells for your scouts. I just love to hear a patrol do a cheer only a 40 year old would understand. Emcourage them to be creative. Finally our troop has a reputation for having fun at summer camp. What do we do that many don't. We take a few games they can play between their classes like wiffle ball, foot ball and anything that is fun to throw. We take checkers, chess, cards and other games those who want to just sit and have fun or on rainy days. I have a camp gaget competition that they get three days to build. Lots of points for knots, lots of knots. I have one for best skit where we usually do our own campfire the night before the Camps Campfire. I usually carry penny candy and fireballs that I hand out when I see a good turn. We do jokes and usually I pick a theme. If some scout does a good joke, he gets a reward. Last year was elephant jokes. The year before was bear jokes. One night we sleep outside under the stars. I carry a few plastic spiders for adult tents. Onc year I had a plastic snake. Oh the humanity. But mostly we let the boys be boys, as long as they live by the Scout Law and Oath. Once they step beyound those bounds, well the SPL and generally the older scouts had a meeting with the SM. A disapointed scoutmaster. As for the adults, take a good book, fishing pole, or even a good camera. Some of the shots will be priceless. Assume the best, prepare for the unexpected. Summer camp is a wonderland for the all. It's one of my favorite Scouts places. Barry

Wow Sharon, I just read your last post. I think your Troop choose their SM wisely. I love this Scouting stuff. Barry

>>When a Scout is told to police the area around his tent and says, "No" is that the same as when a Scout is told to like the SPL's boots and says, "No"?

>>My question, in this long diatribe, is HOW do you train the parents to allow the SM to handle the situation when it arises at a troop function/event? HOW do you teach the boys the Golden Rule when the parents of said boys have no conscience? HOW do I teach the boys hazing is wrong--and not a joke?

Good Scouting Morning All When a boy says no, that is when the line has been drawn. The Philmont staff was showing there frustration this year because back country staffs can nolonger require the trash being dropped off to be condenced to very small sizes. They were told that such a request was on the verge of hazing. Of course it's alway someone who has gone too far the forces such a change. Apparently some staff were intertained by tearing the small bundles appart and ordering the crews to start over. Scouting Cheers Barry

Hi Dan We've been to Quetico twice and love it. I hope you get a boat ride to Hook Island, that is fun also and it sure helps you get a good start. Be sure and say hi to Canadan Ranger for us. She is interesting to say the least. Mark explained how we also select crew leaders. Usually its the guy who pushed the idea of the trek in the first place. In your case if one hasn't been selected, I usually ask a scout who I think is capable, but needs leadership experience. He needs to understand the responsibility and the pressure that goes along with it. It can be a long week for someone not ready. It will also be a test on you because you havn't got in the habit of turning to your crew leader to let him answer questions that are asked of you. One other thing our fairly new SM learned the hard way. In our Troop, the SPL is still responsibile for not leaving anyone and maintains control until the crews leave on their treks. If your SPL is not going, you need to assign one, it can be a crew leader. You also still need a quarter master to make sure the gear is loaded up correctly. Our SM who had not been on a Venture Patrol treks before ignored this. I was pulling our trailer, so I asked him to get me a quartermaster, which surprised him. I still wonder who he thought was going to load the gear. He didn't get an SPL and while we have great scouts who can take care of themselves, we almost left a scout behind. He couldn't understand why it happened until I asked him who usually checks the cars. Have a great trip at Quetico, I hope you see the Moose (Meese?) that we saw. Oh and take a backpacking hammock, they have great trees for hammocks. I finished a Tom Clancy book and stayed out of the boys hair. Oh, I know of a great fishing spot, but I need to find my map. Oh how I love this scouting stuff Barry

>>My frustration last night had more to do with parents blaming ADD or ADHD for their childs behavior.

>>you are not doing this boy or his family a favor by sweeping it under the rug. I guarantee you, his outburst/plea for attention will be louder and possibly more dangerous the next time.

Hi Mark It's been a little while, but my understanding is that 16 is the only BSA restriction which you can find on the tour permit. Any other restriction is a unit restriction. Our Troop has a 21 rule which prevented my 20 year old son from driving to Philmont this year. I think your son is legal at 16 and above to take anyone as far as the BSA is concerned. Check you personal insurance. Barry

Hi Laurie Our guys have been trained to expect their favorite meal, usually ribs for our older son, and Chineese for the younger son. And sleep as long as they want the next day. I have been trained to expect other things, but this is about the boys. Hope to hear some great stories. You must be a wonderful mom. Barry

>>So,until FOG either changes his behavior (which I do not expect), or until Terry and the other board operators choose to rid us of FOG again (as they did when he violated the board rules before), I see no need to continue to feed him on this board.

>>I wish our council still did the WRC the way they do in your council. Unfortantly our council built this really nice Cub Camp next to the Boy Scout camp and now the WRC program has been trashed.

My daughters pillow. We worked out a deal a few years ago where I would take something of hers so she could feel included on troop on campouts. It started as a Snow White pillow. Now its just little flowers. I love this scouting stuff. Barry