Eagledad

That was a really good article, thanks guys. Its interesting how much the manufacturers have caught on to lightweight backpacking, there is a lot more choices now than just seven years ago. Our crew typically weighed in with packs between 20 to 25 pounds, so I am very impressed with this writer. There are few comments: One of the problems with Philmont is the cost. While it seems expensive just paying the BSA for the experience, the gear can triple the cost for the first timer. Our troop made an art form of light weight backpacking on a low budget. When I look at the pictures of that article, I was impressed already by the non-uniform dress of the crew. Its an experience the first day of the trek to see all the crews together waiting for the bus that will take them to the trail head. That is also where everyone gets to watch the pack weigh in of each backpacker. One of the first things we notice is how some crews are in identical dress even down to the backpacks and trekking poles. Come rain and you see identical rain gear and pack covers. Those were also the crews where we saw 120 pound boys with in with 60 pound packs. That is half the boys weight. I remember watching the face of the ranger responsible for that crew. I could tell this wasnt the first time he had a crew like this, but it still was going to be very challenging. Im not saying that a crew that dresses a like or in uniform is wrong, but it tends to expose where the crew did or didnt put a lot of focus. We were always picking up poles and giving them back to the scout who dropped them a head of us when we met at camp. You will not be looked at badly if your crew does not look uniform. Getting back to cost: the writer of the article gave some great tips for light weight clothing and gear. The problem was much of the gear he suggested was new and expensive. His advise to get pants with liners is a good one because you dont need to take underwear. But you might save a lot with a pair of athletic shorts or hiking shorts with liners at an outdoor store like Academy that we have here in Oklahoma, or even Walmart.. Half our crew gets the zip off legs pants, but you can save 30 bucks by not getting the higher end gear. If you can afford it fine, but most boys families arent ready for that cost. As for long pants, many of the wind protector pants at Walmart are cheap, lite and waterproof. Did I say cheap? And they typically have the snap up or zip up legs so they are easy to throw on and take off. Shirts are the same thing. I have noticed that Academys store brand sport shirts are half the price of the higher end gear. Those are great shirts because they have the roll up sleeves and for another five dollars, and you get the shirt with UV protection. Our crew typically took two shirts, one long sleeve and one short sleeve. But some of the guys used their long underwear top for long sleeve if they ever needed it to be warm. Then there is the footwear. I agree with the writer that running shoes are fine for Philmont because the trails are so smooth, but we still suggested a boot for ankle support for our guys. That being said, I always had a couple scouts who just wore running shoes and did fine. However, were we did not want boys to save money was on socks. Socks do to things that are very important, keep your feet dry and prevent blisters. Actually one causes the other, but we asked every scout to bring two pairs of hiking socks with two pairs of liners. Now I want to say and everyone will agree that none of this gear should have any cotton. Cotton holds moisture and moisture is the cause of feet problems and hypothermia. That being said, most of our scouts usually brought at least one cotton t-shirt. It wasnt a problem because they also brought at least one non-cotton shirt if needed. But for some reason, they needed a t-shirt that gave them some kind of identity I guess. We asked everyone who saw a sale on any kind of backpacking clothing or gear to announce that sale at the troop meetings for all the other scouts. You would be amazed that Walmart always has non-cotton clothing on sale. Same goes with backpacking gear, there are a lot of sales on the internet. Our troop had a back exchange, when a scout out grew his pack, typically around age 14, he would bring it up to the troop meeting to sell it, or even donate it. My two sons and I donated three packs. Boots are the same, some boys feet grow so fast that they hardly have any time in them at all. You have to be very careful about fit and wear, but some boots are worth handing down. If a troop starts helping scouts to buy their gear a year or two out, it will be a lot easier on the parents budget. And the gear can be used over again as well. My sons and I had a box just for our high adventure gear and clothing. I still use some of that gear that is, well Im not going to tell you how old some of that gear is. Its not as bad as it use to be because there is so much cheap gear and clothing that reduces the weight without sacrificing comfort. But even still we have to think what luxuries we might be willing to carry: A book, fishing pole, or even that cell phone. For me it was a camping chair. After a long hot day of backpacking, I just hated the thought of sitting my wet sweaty body on the hard dusty ground. Even worse, Philmont is an active cattle ranch, so it is likely that you will camp where a heard of cows have camped before you, if you know what I mean. So I gladly carried a 30 ounce camping chair without any regrets. Just about everyone will bring something that isnt really required for the trek. Its just a matter of not bring several of those items. And when I think back of why I was closer to the 25 pound side, I always carried and extra pair of socks or some medication for flu, stomach or just plan soreness for the other scouts. I know, I know, but it seemed like there was always one scout that got careless of cocky, or started with a fever or cough. I am not suggesting that every adult do that, I guess it was just the weight of the little bit of the dad in me that I was willing to carry. This is a fun discussion folks. I look forward to seeing others contribute more advise or even stories to this topic. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There are some good responses, but even getting the scouts more involved and invested in the project won't always work, sometimes the scouts aren't willing to give what it takes to make such things happen. We talk here like it just boys being boys because the adults didnt handle it right, but when you work at the District or Council level, you are awakened that adults are just as bad. I don't think it is an age thing. While there are good lessons here for everyone, the SPL, PLC and the SM owe at least a word of thanks and maybe even an apology for all the effort that was put in by the volunteers. We complain about burnout and how thankless volunteering can be, this is where someone can learn at an early age of how to be understanding and compassionate to those who may be disappointed by their decisions because of the time they invested. Its not like just flipping a switch and everyone is OK with this decision, people put a lot of themselves into making things like this successful. There is disappointment to say the least. Just because the scouts arent considered adults by age doesnt mean they arent mature enough to experience being appreciative to those who invest their time and resources for them, no matter how the process was handled. We had a troop do a program like this for our district and it was a big success. Several of the other troops ask that troop to teach them how to do their own survival weekend. Its to bad this troop didnt buy into it. Barry

I think a 30 degree bag is fine. Long underwear can make up for a really cold night. Hiking poles are cumbersome because they are just two more things to keep up with and add more weight to carry. They are a blessing for hikers with bad knees and I would advise adults do a few long hikes at home to see if they have that problem. But I find scouts dont use them correctly because they dont feel the advantage polls give. I agree with the idea of loading up a pack and hiking around with it. I think two or three mile neighborhood hikes are fine to get the body in shape for the weight, but the scouts must do at least two if not three longer overnight hikes to really get a sense of carrying weight on a hiking trail. Your son is at the age and his trek is far enough away that he could outgrow his pack and boots, so watch that. Personally I dont think Philmont trails require the most expensive boots. Many of the Philmont rangers just wear tennis shoes or even hiking sandals. A boot with a firm sole is about all that is required and can be found for a lot less than $100. But as far as fitness goes, I found that most active kids are fit enough for Philmont, its generally the mental fitness that seems to make scouts struggle. We ask our scouts to run 3 miles three times a week for cardio fitness of the mountains, but you would be surprised who seem to have the fitness problems. We had the most trouble with the very athletic most fit scouts. Philmont backpacking is really is a mental thing that should be watched during the practice hikes. Watching the hundreds of scouts at Philmont, I find that overloaded packs are by far the main cuprites of misery for most scouts. I would suggest that your troop practice lightening up, even make a contest of who can pack the lightest. No pack should weight more than 30 pounds before water, food and crew gear. And really 25 pounds is a much much much better. That five pound is a huge difference in comfort and fatigue because food, water and crew gear will add a minimum of 15 pounds. Some of the more experienced backpackers just bring 20 pound packs. Thats why I say if you dont have bad knees, saving the weight of hiking polls by leaving them home gives most scouts a better advantage. Also, when buying a pack, less experienced backpackers tend to pack until the pack is full. So, dont go buy the biggest pack out there. Smaller packs are lighter and they force the packer to leave bulk at home. My first pack was gigantic compared to my next pack that was a 3rd smaller even though I was going on longer hikes. To make it even more fun for your son, get him more involved by researching gear and backpacking techneques. This will give him something to do for the long wait until the summer of 2011. Barry

>>The BSA still doesn't behave like the private club it insists it is

>>Just because you have a legal right to do something doesn't make it "right." Actually NJ, the legal right does make it "right". Now you may not emotionally agree with it, but legally it is factually right. Barry

Yes, NJ and evmori are right. The ruling wasnt about gays or the BSA, it was about the government forcing itself on a private club to change its rules. If it had gone the other way, the government could force the BSA to accept atheist, take out the reference to God from all its materials and even force it to take trustworthy and clean out of the Scout Law so as to be fair to those who like to be dirty and arent trustworthy. Really its a basic right of United States freedom. That a few judges favored Dale still scares me. Now if the BSA eventually feels it must change, that is a different thing. That is an internal choice not being forced by government or the ruling political party at the time (biggest guy with the stick). That is also a basic right of freedom. As for Dale being force to leave because he was caught, he could have said he changed his lifestyle or just left and we wouldnt be having this discussion. That wasnt the choice he made. I guess it could be said life is not fair because the BSA didnt tell him gays weren't allowed when he joined, but whether he knew or not when he joined, he did make a choice when he did find out, not the BSA. He knew the risk and the consequences when he made the choice. Personally I think its silly to blame the BSA because gays arent specifially stated as not allowed on the application. If the BSA or any other organization was expected to list all the lifestyles and behaviors of folks not allowed in the organization, the list would go on for pages and pages and pages. I would be surprised to learn of just one registered adult who didnt know gays werent allowed to register into the BSA. Barry

>>Some packs address it by working with the troop to ensure that the boy is included as a "guest" of the troop, until such time as he is old enough to join. This requires a clear understanding that he can participate, but that nothing "counts" toward any ranks or awards until he is officially a member.

We had a few atheist parents and I have to say the only negative experience I ever had with atheist in scouting is here on the forum. The parents in our units were open minded and letting their sons choose their own path. In fact, many of those parents were fairly active in supporting the unit, they just didn't sign up. One parent was an Eagle. He was less active with the pack, but very supportive of his son in the program non-the-less. Barry

>>Nope, I like the 6-8 patrol members recommended by BP for each PL be retained and that the PL be responsible for them. This would then imply that the SPL could comfortably handle the responsibility for 6-8 PL's (PLC) and that the SPL not have to try and deal with 64 people, i.e. "run the troop".

Dangerous? I can't put into words the confidence this kind of experience builds into a boy. Its starts him to realize that nothing is impossible and that they can conquer even the smallest fears. It is a confidence that they will keep forever, and it is an experience they will tell to their grandkids. I found (by accident) that for a boy today, just setting up a tent in the hard rain while in the black dark of night is the same kind of experience. Yep, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>BSA literature states that the SPL runs the troop. Okay, fine. I don't know of many pre-18 year olds that can run a troop of 30-40 boys and probably just as many over 18.

While I have not experienced not using a SPL, I have experienced the scouts doing what is necessary to ease their burden of running the troop. Troops tend to get too heavy or to lean and adjustments need to be made to improve the program. Once the scouts realize that you really have given them permission to run the program the best way they can, they will adjust the leadership structure to fit. If things are going well right now, I think I would leave it alone and let them find the need for the SPL. If and when they do get one, the position will likely be more efficient and substantive for the troop than if they were pushed to get one. Who runs the PLC meetings? Barry

We always had a lot of adults go with us, but I guess the reason it was no big deal was because we typically camped at least 100 yards from the scouts, and we didn't feel the need to keep adults busy doing scouting stuff. We encourage them to go fishing, hiking, biking or something like that. Many just hung around the campfire reading, but the adults were not encourage to hang with the scouts. It may have turned into a camping club thing for some of the adults, but the only time our scouts might see most of the adults was during the campfire. Barry

Of course you all are right in most cases, but I remember when Lisabob brought up the problem of the adults not letting the older scouts camp or hike by themselves. If I remember correctly, it wasn't so much a matter of trust, but a matter of parents having an excuse to go camping or hiking. Add that the SM is indifferent to the boys needs and adults needs, I think this is a different and more difficult problem. As was said by the other poster, the adults are not stating their goals to the scouts very well, so there is confusion. But when you have a SM who doesn't have goals, then it turns into a "whatever feels good at the moment" kind of program. Until a single leader stands up and says this is where we are going and this is how we will get there, the troop will coast in what the adults wants at that moment. Lisa needs to become the SM. Barry

>>but there is a fear that I am too serious about the job to lead..

What do you mean by support him? In the big world, his misleadership should be enough for the rest of the patrol to not support him back. If they do, then this is an indicator of a bigger problem with the patrol method. As for the scout, did he grow at all in his position? There hopefully is something to salvage there that can be used to push him to reach a little higher in his future scouting experience. I have had some scouts who just don't seem to care or react to counseling of their performance. I remember one such scout who told me during his Eagle COH that he earned the Eagle because I kept pushing him to reach just a little higher. I certainly didn't think that because I remember most of our talks seemed like events of frustration to me. I honestly never felt I reached him. But he did manage to earn the Eagle, I credit his dad. The thing is that scouts who make huge strides in growth tend to overshadow those who make very small steps a little at a time. Leadership may not be your scouts best attribute, but he may also turn into a civic leader one day because his experience in scouting give him someplace to start. I think because you care so much about him you are likely doing ok. Im not sure what you mean by support, but if you just keep presenting him with opportunities that give him those little steps forward, who knows what he might say about you at his Eagle COH. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

>>As a Scoutmaster, I view my main job as making sure these crazy scouts don't hurt themselves.

>>While I would hope not to judge others, it seems a little daffy that we would not allow two loving parents to join our organization, but have no problem allowing a guy who out and about cheating on his wife. If we really do believe in living by the golden rule? How would we feel if we were being discriminated agains

Well, Ive been there and done that and personally I think you have done a pretty good job so far. Good Work. A few thoughts as best as I can reflect: Just be careful the goals are realistic. Even though a good Scoutmaster instills a scout to envision that kind of scout he can become, the Scoutmaster has to resist giving the scout the scoutmasters vision. We must instead guide the scout to set and reach his goals. One small step forward is better than two steps back. Many adults get hung up on the scout not making progress toward the big goal when the small steps are big for some boys. From our perspective, he may infact just never show much growth in working with other people or delegating. Or he may just be biting off too much too fast at the moment. Again, keep up the small positive growths because anything is better than nothing just like at takes a lot of small step to reach the mountain top. Imagine where this young man would have been without his Den Chief and Troop Guide experience. He does have something to brag about. You didnt mention the parents, but can they help you in accomplishing some small victories? I have worked with a few scouts just like this, but I was surprised once when the Council had their Annual Review of the Council for all the Districts officers. The Council Executive started the meeting with a letter he just received. In that letter, the mother explained that her son was very smart, but very awkward and struggled to make friends. In fact even struggled with teachers who seemed to not care much for him. The only place her son felt comfortable was in the Boy Scout Troop where he was not only accepted, but was a Patrol Leader. She just wanted to make sure that the SE knew that Scouting does work. Well, that scout was in our troop and your scout sounds just like him. I agree with you that maybe he should have been pushed a little earlier to be more active in his patrol. But I think what is important is that you help him make positive steps at his pace and maturity. In fact, I think you have been doing just that. Its hard work, I know. But just keep pressing on with that little bit of pressure and you will one day few rewarded. Both of you will grow from this experience. What you are learning now will be applied to the next scout in similar circumstances. I love this scouting Stuff. Barry

Hey the Who are like what, 100 years old. They did manage to hit some high notes that surprised me. Im really glad they didnt have any wardrobe malfunctions. Ewuuu I like the Betty White add the best, but I agree this wasnt one of the better years for commercials. Game was OK, but we didnt have a dog in the fight, so we just ate a lot of good food. I had to ride my wifes stationary bike after because I felt guilty. Barry

>>BSA's policy is going to force alot of Scouters to either starve or not be able to go on trips w/the sons.

My troop did this when I was a youth with chickens and turkeys. We also did a hog, but that really turned into the adults doing it. I don't know what the BSA would say about it, but we really enjoyed it and it is a very good learning experience and a real good confidence builder. I do know that folks raise rabbits just for eating, so I'm sure you can find them as well. You might check with a Chinese restaurant to find a source. I think that was where our adults found them. Personally I think cleaning and skinning a rabbit is easier than the chicken and someone could use the fur for tanning. That used to be a Merit Badge. Oh, how did we kill them, grab them by the head and yank hard. Also get the right chickens, for cooking and I would say one chicken feeds at most three hungry scouts. Hope you guys can get it worked out, the boys will have a lot of fun and stories to tell. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>I have sent a couple in the last few weeks. I sent one to Beavah, Old Grey Eagle and Scoutdad.

>>Scoutmaster is no little thing, and is far more than what you think you are signing up for. For me, the best Scoutmasters have big hearts, a well-developed sense of fun, a nose for adventure, the ability to give and get respect, an almost unquestioning dedication to both the program and the Scouts, and a sense of how to hang back and let the boys lead without interference from him/herself or other adults. They need to play the role of teacher, of taskmaster, of gatekeeper, of mentor, of public relations man, of referee, of car driver, and of parent, and a million others on top of that.

My observation is a little different, but then I started as a CM and ended as SM. I fully agree that the job of CM is completely different than the SM. A good CM is very hands on with the boys while a good SM is very hands off. That is a big shift, but not hard if the SM has a vision. Strangely, I think the adults who are a bit of an attention seeker make a pretty good CM but make a horrible SM. I think adults who have a bit of the clown or entertainer make are good CM qualities, but again horrible qualities of a SM. A good CM has to be Johnny on the spot because there is always a scout who didnt get his award. The SM is the opposite and must learn to sit on his hands because he/she trains the scouts to be the Johnny on the spot and the SM wants to see how they handle it. I have worked with hundreds of SMs and I dont think you can know how good they will be before they start because there is such a learning curve at the beginning. However, I have found that the ones who start out with both feet running typically had a good boy scout experience as a youth. Not always the case, but in general those guys have a big advantage because they remember the fun side of scouting, not just the business side. Barry