Eagledad

>>For my part though, I was bein' honest in my reportin' and my observations.

Beav, that is the most ridiculous analysis I have read on this forum in a long time. What next, suicide from Blue Card depression? Barry

Soooo youuu don't like the Iphone idea? LOL OK, what you're saying has some merit I guess. One Scoutmaster's success is another Scoutmaster's pain in the.... Barry

OK Beav, I'm struggling here: >>The reason for that is that da paperwork takes away from the quality of interaction. >Have yeh ever watched most of those interactions carefully? Both the lad and the adult are focused on the card, and not on the task, and not on each other.

>>"I really learned about responsibility from having to keep track of 150 blue card segments and 500 lines of signatures and initials." Boys learn real responsibility in da program through campin' and cookin' and hikin' and planning and leading and workin' together, not by keepin' track of paperwork. Real responsibility, eh? Not bureaucratic busywork.

>>I was informed that it is cheaper, and sturdier, to take the current BSHB, got to Staples, and get them to spiral bind it.

I feel the dinning fly is required safety gear. Every BSA outfitter (Philmont, Northern Tier, so on) and even most private outfitter include a fly so everyone can get out of the elements. Without a fly, scouts are forced to their tents during rain and snow where they can't cook their meals. My scouts have played hours of hearts, spades and go-fish under tarps. From experience, scouts are much more at risk of hypothermia even in moderate temperatures. The dinning fly is always at the top of someones back so that we can grab it quickly even while on the trail. All our patrols have packable dinning flys but they don't usually set them up unless the weather forces them. Barry

Bigbovine, may I call you BB. It probably surprises everyone here that I was a pretty strong personality in our troop. Not only did the troop basically call our troop boy run style "Barrys program", so did the District and Council. The SM who was replacing me knew a year ahead of time they day he would be the new SM. And from his perspective, he had some very big shoes to replace. I know this caused him some sleepless nights, because about a month before he took over, he took me out to lunch to discuss his concernes and he asked me to take a vacation from the troop for three months. And I did.. I had a similar situation when I took on the SM gig because my new CC was the SM I was replacing. He is a really really good guy and he taught me so much about Scoutmastering. But there were a few things I wanted to do different, so we butted heads until I finally said, this is how we are going to do things, if it doesnt work out, we will change. He not only agreed, he asked where he could help me best. We turned into a great team, but like all of us, he had to humble himself and bow to the new scoutmaster and his vision. We are who we are, and nobody has the same style or the same vision. You will not be happy until you try your style of scoutmasting working toward your vision. It won't all work the way you want, but you learn from it, change and try again. If you arent allowed to at least give it a try, then likely its not worth the stress because Scoutmasting even on its best days is HARD. There is nobody that understands the weight on your shoulders except those who have been there. Even your best hardest working ASM doesn't fully appreciate what a SM goes through. I know this because I was the ASM and it didn't come close. You need to take the other Scoutmasters to lunch and explain your concerns. You need to be willing to say no and walk away if you arent given some room to give the troop some of your style. As I said, its a tough job when everything is going well, so why bring predictable misery into your family. Family comes first. Barry

The scouts are not going to respect the adults as wise mentors until the adults respect the scouts as equal brothers preparing for life. Shifting the state of mind from dad to big brother requires practice. Barry

>>What about organizing events? Troop meeting, teaching younger scouts a skill, that sort of thing?>I'd like to hear more examples of SM created challenges.

>>"New politics" issues might include such things as environmentalism & "green" issues, gay rights, other group rights, vegan/vegetarianism, healthy foods, etc. And these tend to work as a constellation, ie, people who have gotten past the basic needs/security "old politics" issues and are focused on "new politics" issues tend to be involved or concerned with several overlapping causes, all of which might be "new politics" in nature.

I remember walking through camp one Saturday morning when one of our scouts asked as I walked by is the rinse water supposed to be cold or hot SM Barry?. I turned while still walking, but before I could answer, he fired off I know I know, look it up in the book.. No the book is not a required book to advance. But it can be everything else. It is THE main source the scouts refer to for all the answers. There is no need for the adults to be the experts of scout skills because its all in their book. There is no need for the adults to be the uniform police because its all in the book. In fact, the book has been the standard that has corrected and humiliated adults now and then. But the book is more than that. The book is also the scouts log of their experiences and goals. Anything and everything. Dates and times for goal deadlines. Hours of service and even a menu now and then. As a SM, I only need to refer to their book to see how they are doing and ask the questions that start them into some great stories. I enjoy most the book that look like they spent a day floating down the Mississippi. What happen Billy? the Scoutmaster asked laughingly? The Boy Scout book isnt the main official record to advance, but it could be. And at the very least, it should be the official log of memories. It should be a reminder of where theyve been and where they are going. So while I would accept any form of log to see when the scout signed off some of the requirements, I would still like to take a peek into his life as a boy scout. And can you imagine a 35 year old father pulling his dusty old Boy Scout Handbook out of a box that has been sitting in Grandma and Grandpas attic for so many years. What a treasure. Barry

>>This year we were truly boy-lead. The boys were taught how the process works, shown how to break down the planning components and how to construct a proper annual plan.

>> "Earning" a nickname means you're a full-fledged member of the group.........Sometimes moms and women don't get it.

Team, Group, or Patrol identity has to be forged among the member through the struggle of working together. Its not as simple as saying, here is your patrol, now act like a patrol, type thing. Group identity comes at the cost of members putting out individual selfless effort to accomplish a team goal. Do a search on Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing. Patrol identity can take hours or years, it depends on the intensity of effort to reach the goal. I have watched Patrol identities forum in one night of Lazor Tag because the intensity required for the group to come together to win a match. I have seen it happen in just a few days on just about every High Adventure Crew of which I was a member. If your patrols dont have goals that require some group intensity to reach the goal, then group identity will take a long time. I disagree with most here that you should break up the Patrols and reform them to create bigger and more functional patrols. Most experienced SMs will tell you that even if only one member of a patrol attends a campout, keep him a separate patrol. You will find more pride and identity in that one scout than most of the other patrols. The one scout can ignite the other members at the next meeting. Developing Patrol identity is direct function of the team work intensity, dont breakup work in progress. Be patient and encourage the work. Create goals for the patrols. Make the members work together for one task. Create patrol competitions. Make everything a competition. First to assembly, first to finish a meal and KP, best skit, best song, best inspection. Whatever it is, just get your members to work together for a common group purpose. You need the common goals so the members can see their specific talent or skill to help the team (Forming). Getting ready for the next campout, who is developing the menu and assigning scouts to shop for food, who is creating the skits and cheers and assigning scouts to those positions. Who is making sure of transportation? Make each member see their specific task for the group goal, and do those task or fail. You need the team to humble themselves into contributing to the team for the good of the team and not themselves (Storming). The team needs to experience how working together results in success. Who didnt make the menu or create the skits. Who didnt get the food. Why did they not do it and do they see how one member pulls the whole team down. This is where the adults get the member to see themselves now and what they can be in the future. Failure is good, it is an indicator, it shows a wrong direction. Use the power of failure to point the patrol in the right direction. The team will stress during storming, but the calm of the mentor or adult will show them that they are doing OK and to keep going. You need the team to see their personal efforts contributing to the team success (Norming). The best score on patrol inspection. First patrol to assembly. Any success in a patrol competition. Recognize their successes, be the patrols best cheer leader. Give them the gift of goals to strive for. Patrol Identity (Performing). The members work together like a well oiled machine. They almost seem to read each others minds on with their task. They take pride in eating good food, being on time to most activities and the younger scouts look up to them. They go out of their way to help the troop succeed as well. They latch to their identity and take pride in being the member of that patrol. Go visit a crew that just came off the trail and see their identity in their faces. Watch the members of that crew in future troop activities. They aren't group anymore, but they have an identity that doesn't go away. I dont know how your troop is working, but Im guessing that the patrols are not stressing enough as a team or failing as individuals enough to change. Dont break them up or combine them on campouts. Make a patrol of one succeed. Its been said many times, learning how to be a good adult leader of a boy run troop takes twice as much work as the scouts. But the rewards are great. I wish you luck, but I also envy the pride you are going to feel. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>What's wrong with last minute requests? Half our projects occur during campouts.

>>All this guy did was express his opinion on gay marriage. That's all. He's allowed.

Yes, I would be upset by the driver making a last minute change. I agree the SM probably would have rather had one of his older scouts than some girls who arent members of the troop. It sounds like your family did everything right as far as compromising and still making camp. Our patrols did this all the time and we encouraged it because given the choice of some scouting or no scouting, we took what we could get. The lesson learned here is you have a better understanding of the adults involved and will know how to work with them next time. Learning who you can count on and the skills of your adults is the Scout Masters more difficult jobs. Developing that skill has made me better at work. Barry

The troop is the second largest in the district. All attributed to their recruiting weekend. I don't know if their program gets boys who would not have otherwise crossed over. I don't know if some of the scouts we get participated with their weekend. I have not been involved lately, but that troop of over 110 scout averaged about 35 new scouts a year, but didn't grow because they also typically loose over half of their new scouts. I approached them when I was District membership Chair because I felt they we loosing scouts that would have stayed if they joined a different troop. They listened to my concerns and reacted to them to some degree. But I don't know how they are doing now. In my opinion, a three month focus on one recruiting weekend is not a good program. Barry

>>While a quality program is a necessary precondition for a successful troop, I don't think recruiting is something that should be neglected.

The general rule is a troop grows to the size the SM can manage. The bigger a troop gets the more challenging to manage a boy run style program. 50 is about the number where the SM has to make decisions to maintain boy run or tilt more to adult managed. It's rare to find boy run troops larger than 50, but they are around and usually are very good programs. As others have said, quality is a function of the adults, so it's hard to give general guidelines. However, t larger troops have more access to resources like adults with a range of skills. On the other side, smaller troops are easier for boys to plan and manage and can do a lot of activities on a shorter schedule. How long has the small troop been small? Good programs usually grow. One thing I always like to compare is the older scouts. The quality of the older scout program reflects the whole program. The more the younger scouts are involved with the older scouts the more mature the program as a whole. Barry

>>Eagledad, I think the answer is what Rush Limbaugh has said on many occasions, it's all about money.

>>I think we're missing an important subtlety.

>>Second, and this is purely anecdotal on my part and you all can now go about proving me wrong, but I think a lot of folks who are activists in gay rights causes are also folks who would be unlikely to eat fast food anyway.

Yes, I compared the Dixie Chicks controversy with the Chik Fil A because both controversies come under the heading of free speech. If we look at each drama under conservative/liberal headings, how can conservatives support Chik Fil As right of free speech while not supporting the Dixie Chick right to free speech? One theory is that their reaction wasnt really about free speech, it was instead an emotional reaction to a challenge of their strong feelings on the subject. But I was reminded that the anger toward the Dixie Chicks was not their anti government opinions, but that they stated their opinions in other countries. Folks just felt that was a cowardly way to protest. That muddies the data and the theories. I dont know, but it does suggest the possibility that we as a culture base our principles from emotion and can change instantly in the moment. Still, on that theory, there must be a core somewhere down deep that holds us to some kind of principled compass. Barry