Eagledad

>> So I tend to be an advocate of troops limiting membership, because it both leads to a better experience for the youth (and adults!) and because it helps avoid unnecessary loss of boys "leaking" out when a troop gets too big and da individual lads get lost.

There are two parts that I would try to insure happen, get the scouts involved in the discussion so that they have ownership of the results, and make sure you have your own ideas going into the discussion. Im not a fan of sending the blind off into the wilderness in the name of boy run. Present the situation to all the scouts and then step back and watch the discussions. Likely it will go toward the obvious of one patrol with trained leaders. If the discussion is more of just randumness of no direction as a result of inexperience and maturity, then ask a question to get them on track and then sit back to watch. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with trained leaders being pushed to start the new program. Its OK to suggest qualifications for leadership should be considered for good direction of the group. You are the mentor and a guide of wisdom. If they dont consider the direction you suggest, then you have some challenges. But Scouts generally are pretty good about these things when the future of their fun and adventure are in question. This will be a test of your patience, scouts work at a forth the speed of adults because they dont have experience to guide them. If you dont get in a hurry, they will figure it out. And it will be fun for all involved. Barry

>>The two teenaged boys: The only thing she knew was that there were two boys there and they walked out doing something with their pants. All other conclusions were prejudice.

My Apologies, I guess the metaphor is more common here. From Wikipedia: The Frog in the Pot The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually. Barry

>>A way exists to accommodate both of those viewpoints, in different units, but you don't support it and the BSA won't do it. That's what I have a problem with.

Great post Horizon. If I were still a SM, I would read your post word for word at my next SM Minute. Nothing needs to be added. Barry

>>Very few of us are really in a position to throw stones.

>>Peregrinator, we did have a chat afterwards. But if you think we had much effect on those raging hormones, you need a reality check, fella.

Im shaking my head in amazement. Dean, I dont think anyone could do a better job to impress the point of this subject. See NJ, the frog doesnt think the water is hot. Barry

>> Barry's posts (even in Issues and Politics) almost always relate to Scouting in some way, and as far as I know there is not a huge nationwide issue with strippers in leadership positions.

Dean, your examples are folks in distinguished well respected occupations making bad choices. Nude strip and lap dancing are not yet accepted by most communities as respectable occupations. >>As for the article, let the courts decide... its more about tax revnue and avoiding it than it is about morality anyways.

>>Eagledad, I can't find any reference to a child whose mother is a strip tease dancer.

>>When offered the choice between electing the best person for the job or electing someone who needs a POR they always seem to choose the one who needs it. I can't imagine a troop voting down a boy for Eagle except in the most extreme circumstance.

Hi all There is a story by the AP today where a NY court is deciding whether strip tease dancing is a form of art or not. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_LAP_DANCE_TAXES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-05-02-47-07 ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) -- They may never be confused with "Swan Lake," but an upstate New York strip club says its nude lap dances are every bit as much an art form and should be exempt from state taxes. Ah, teaching the lap dance at your daughters next dance class. I can't wait for the next recital. My wife and I used to buy season tickets each year for the Oklahoma City Theater where we enjoyed Broadway caliber plays. A few years ago the company put on a play that had a lot of what we felt was pretty R rated acts. The Oklahoma City Theater lost our season ticket loyalty. That was several years ago and Im guessing the company took a pretty good hit because I still folks defending that play. One of the justifications for the play was portraying that time in history accurately. This led folks to the saying; "one mans porn is another mans history lesson." When I say that homosexuality is a contributor to anti-family culture, this is article is an example of what Im talking about. Stripping is not the main contributor to an immoral culture nor is homosexuality. But when one dangerous form of immorality becomes accepted as normal, it leads to the next immoral taboo and so on until all immoral taboos are sacrificed for freedom of personal expression. Its like the frog in a pot of hot water. Porn is porn. Acceptance of porn leads folks to other dangerous behaviors that are harmful to themselves and to their family. I remember about 20 years ago when a CM was fighting to remain a CM after it was learned that she was a stripper. Yes, I know folks on this forum find strippers as accetable role models for cub scouts. But if a cub scout can't visit their role models at work, are they setting an acceptable example of a community leader? I think we are about at that place where there are no more immoral taboos. Parents will struggle to define the line between freedom of personal expression and behaviors that are not considered healthy. I don't care how progressive you think you are, when you open your front door and a pot smoking half dressed tatooed teenager babysitter is waiting to be invited in, you are likely finding that line. Sadly we as a culture are letting pop Political correctness dictate our choices, not common sense or even religious instruction. Even now folks today are ridiculed when they openingly express their intolerance of immoral behavior. Hey, it's OK because it's just a form of art, right. It's imitating history, or it not in public site, there or no victims, and on and on. There seems to be a lot of reasons for acceptance of immoral behavior in our culture. How far out is the new fad of lap dancing to loose weight? I can see another political cause to gain votes. Barry

I read a few days ago that Chicago is now some kind of racist word. This kind of silliness is creating a generation of the population that doesnt have a clue what racism really is. Barry

Hi all Everything that has been said is true, however the one factor that isnt being discussed is the problem of getting cubs to the troops. The BSA loses over half of the families crossing from Cubs to Scouts. Also, and I don't know the exact figure because it has changed (for the worst), but we lose a lot of Webelos going from first year to second year. Now I blame the daunting 5 year Cub program, but we are stuck with it and need to find some way of attacking the problem broadside. A troop representative for the pack is an idea that might be worth testing. I don't think the rep has to be very active, just take on an advisory role, especially at the Webelos level. If the pack could get the advice of an experienced scouter, it might help make the pack leaders job easier for everyone. As for the troop, Im wondering how hard it would be to ask an ASM to be an advisor for the pack. Take responsibility to coordinate some Webelos/Troop activities and do Den Chief training for the Den Leader and Scout. At the very least, if the troop rep could just identify a week Webelos den, that would be a huge step in trying to help those scouts. I know a lot of us have already or still work with the pack, but it's not accepted as a general idea at the District level. That's what I'm suggesting here. Until National figures out that their biggest problem in scouting today is the five year Cub program, we will have to come up with our own fixes. I think its worth a try. Barry

>>The Eagle rank was never meant to be "the best of the best" or represent expert level outdoor and leadership skills.

Wow CC, that is a deep well thought out post. I have one question; What? I must say the discussion went a different direction than I expected. All I was suggesting was "What if we let the scouts pick eagles based from their experience with the scout?". Then I played the devils advocate to defend the idea. Maybe "what ifs" are best left to engineers. I don't really think there is a problem to fix. Oh sure I would love to get rid of the silly no adding requirements and no retesting political correctness, but overall the system works. yes, I think there are some good ideas that could tune the system, but they have very little effect on the whole. And I know Guy and his SM are going a direction they don't want to go, but in most cases like Guy's, the scout started off on the wrong foot and wasn't corrected in time. It happens, even the bible says wisdom comes at a price. I'm glad Guy is making the effort. He is a good man. I do kind of like that weekend of testing idea. Um, that wouldn't be on a football weekend would it? Barry

>>The problem is time. It's hard to be involved in a Pack and a Troop at the same time. I did it for almost a year as WDL and Troop Advancement chair. I thought it stretched me to thin.

My bad NJ. Localisms sometimes get lost in translation on forums. For the longest time I thought Beavah was Cajun. Come to find out hes from Minnesota? LOL Barry

>>And I have news for you

>>He gets it, he works well with the youth, and he knows how to keep the gear lined up. He also knows how to work with the adult member of the committee. But...He is not a "leader." He is not the one that has a group of Scouts following him into the woods. He is more of a lone wolf type without the natural outgoing charisma that leads to elected positions in a unit.

>>Maybe the answer is an additional award.

>>You're not really suggesting we do away with that, right?

Ive been watching the Eagle and EBOR discussions with some amusement. As someone who enjoys observing human behavior, it is interesting to watch how we on this forum tear apart traditional parts of this long standing program. These discussions got me thinking of what the Eagle represents and how Barry would go about finding the scouts who best represent the award. When I was a young lad in scouting, the Arrowmen was the most respected scout in the troop, not the Eagle. Back then only two scouts from each troop were allowed to be selected (by vote of the scouts) from each troop to go to ordeal. Ordeal back then was like the Special Forces boot camp of the BSA. Or so the rumors say. An arrowmen was the best of the best. Not only in scout skills and leadership, but also as teachers, guides and even mentors. These guys had the respect of the scouts they led. They had to be at least 14 years old, long enough to develop the reputation required to be voted by their peers to represent the whole. These guys were almost Zen like in their stature. So I was thinking, how could we guarantee Eagles were truly the person the general population expects from these scouts? How could we take the burden off the present hit or miss system of selecting these outstanding BSA representatives? Well how about letting the scouts in each troop vote for only one or two Eagles every year? No longer would the SM feel the weight of measuring scout spirit or a being active. No more worries about record keeping of MBs or selecting the best counselors. No more of these tedious EBORS. NO MORE APEEALS. Whoo Hooo! Scouts know the true leaders. They know who serves them and who serves their egos. They know who has presents skills and who uses them. They know who practices the scout law and who recites it. Let them pick the true Eagles. Let the scouts carry the weight of selecting our best. Oh of course the BSA will have to change their vision of branding big herds of Eagles, but maybe the stellar reputation of the new modern Eagle will drive parents to put their sons in a program where the Eagle is a higher goal than president of the United States. Maybe the program will raise itself a notch because it has to become the worthy of training the best of the best. Still, there are challenges to this vision. Im not sure it could go in todays politically correct environment where mediocrity is dominant over ambition and excellence. There would be a strong drive for balance just like the Order of the Arrow program. Such a program would have to withstand the challenges of additional requirements and retesting. Still, I throw the idea in the hat for discussion with the rest of the forums out-of-the-box ideas. Barry