Eagledad

Issues and Politics discussions aren't listed on the Latest Post column (why is that?) and many folks don't like to go into the Issues and Politics forum discussions because their tone are sometimes unfriendly. So putting a discussion here is like hiding it in a mushroom cave. Girls in the BSA discussions comes up about every three months and aren't typically informative because the opinions are usually based by emotion and political correctness. This discussion actually had some balance pragmatic information that folks could actually form opinions based from reason. It was a good discussion. Oh well. Barry

Makes no sense to me NJ. Where past discussions have gone should have no bearing on this or another discussion and just about all discussions all over the boards have some issues type comments mixed in. This discussion was pretty much about program. It was very educational because thoughts and opinions were based from actual scouting experiences and observations, not emotional bias. And the participants did a good job keeping it on track and balanced. Your moderating intruded and it is not obvious to me why. I'm not sure you even know why, but something. Barry

Interesting, where did it cross?

No, actually they are fully cooperating. There has been an unwritten longtime agreement by the two organizations to stay away from each others memberships. That is why I'm not worried about the BSA changing it's policy to accept girls. Still, this has been one of the best intellectual discussion on this subject I've ever seen on this forum. For the most part, emotion and political correctness has been left out leaving the benefits and repercussions as the main topic. Also what has been left out is how the adult side will comform to such a change. As I said, I don't think it would go very well because it would encourage more unscout (outdoor activities) like adults to lead the youth into a less scout like program. One of the bigger challenges of a Cub pack is getting good Webelos leaders who want to bring more outdoor skills into the program to get the Webelos ready for a troop program. The reason that is a challenge is because the majority of the Wolf/Bear leaders don't have that kind of experience and don't really want it. Those same adults are the majority of leaders in today's Girl Scout Troops, That is the huge challenge the BSA would have to contend with when bringing in girls. And honestly I don't think there are enough girls who are demanding a boy scout type program to take the risk. As I said I'm pretty selfish about this, if bringing in girls has ANY negative effect on the boys side of the program, then it's a bad deal for the BSA and a bad deal for my son. I'm not willing to compromise a good program just provide a better program for a few girls. Some of you folks have provided some really good stuff in this discussion. But I have seen nothing that makes feel admitting girls would be a benefit for the boys. But it is a really good discussion and I'm listening. Barry

But they don't mind. Instead of feeling guilty, consider instead that you are providing them a wonderful opportunity to show their support and respect. Now that all my kids are married, I like to give. I like to see the smiles on the scouts' faces. It's fun. Last year my wife came home to $70 worth of cookies and knew what had just happened. A cute little thing too shy to really say anything knocked on my door on one very cooled day. While she was trying to sputter a few words, I look up at mom who was standing (freezing) in the street with a red wagon full of cookies. I told the little girl to give me five boxes of everything. I don't know who was happier, mom or her daughter. I once bought $40 worth of popcorn from a scout and told him to keep it to make another $40. I WANT TO GIVE, I just need an excuse and someone to knock on my door! Now, does fund raising build character? When we first started our troop, we had no equipment, so the first couple years of scouts spent a lot of time fun raising. Without going into the details, the PLC a few years later wanted the troop to do more fundraisers because it had become obvious that scouts who did't earn the funds for the equipment they were using didn't have the same respect for the care of it. Sometimes fundraising isn't about the money. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Which goes back to the adults driving the unit. I have said several times before that I believe the main reason scouting is going away from the traditional outdoor program is because fewer volunteers today have the experience of a traditional scouting program and don't understand the value of it. Adding girls would increase the likelyhood of adults with similar backgrounds to build even less traditional Boy Scout patrol method programs. I assisted Troops in our area with volunteers that no scouting experience and it was amazing the differences between their expectations and the simple activities of experienced units. Adding girls would be a major change, so we should assume and consider that there would be major repercussions, good and bad. Barry

Thanks for the correction, but it doesn't change my point. Barry

It's not about the girls. The mission of the BSA is to develop boys into moral and ethical decision makers. Would allowing girls into the troops have a negative affect on that mission for our sons? As the father of a daughter who was in the Girls Scouts, I appreciate the motivation for improving their experience. But I would not support the merge in anyway if it reduces the quality of the boys program. I don't think many folks including me expected much of a change to the program when women were accepted into the the troop program. But after observing the program for the last 20 or so years, I believe that policy has devastated the quality of the program simply because it tripled the number of inexperienced volunteers. Are you willing to sacrifice your sons experience to get something a little better for your daughter? Barry

These are exactly the same words that were used over and over to justify allowing gays. If this is to be a serious discussion, it needs to about how adding girls would affect the quality of the boys program, not about about trying to fix the membership decline. After all, the girls do have their own national scouting program, so it's not about them. Barry

Great ideas. I found that PR is limited by the imagination of the leaders. I always felt that Scouting For Food is one of our best PR opportunities because the scouts get to personally meet the public one house at a time. I know our Cub Scouts had a wonderful time going door to door asking for donations because they met (and saw) some of the most interesting people. And visa versa, most folks seem to enjoy meeting these very young boys doing service work. BUT, the Council wanted to do Scouting For Food even bigger and better, so they decided scouts should just leave bags at the door with instructions to fill the bags and leave them on the patio to be picked up on another arranged day. The process left the meeting of the scouts and public out. And honestly, less food was brought in as well. I manage to change that process in our district, but not council. Another idea is for the Troops to camp at their CO at least once a year. We did this back when I was a young scout and I remember the congregation of the CO church visiting the campsite after service and talking to the scouts. At first I thought it boring, but when an adult really wants to learn about your experience as a scout and see how you live in a tent, it turned out to be very cool. For those Troops that don't have COs with appropriate camp sites, local parks and fields. There are so many ways to bring the public to the program. I once presented the idea to do the District Camporee at the local park. The idea was for all the patrols to camp Friday night at their CO location, then pack up the next morning and back pack to the park stopping for skills competitions along the way. The whole town would be busy with scout skills activities and Scouts hiking around by patrol in their pack packing gear. All locals would be invited to the campfire presented at the football field with a band finishing the evening. One day maybe. As I said, it is just a matter of using the imagination. Barry

No, not for me. The older scouts are the key to a successful troop program. Prepubescent boys learn most of their behavior and skills by watching their older roll models. Taking the older scout roll models out of the program retards the younger scouts maturity and forces a more school room like approach for teaching younger scouts. It's much harder to be boy run because the adults have to step in more often to push the scouts out of the learning ruts. That being said, most Venturing Crews are started as a result of failed older scout programs in troops. The theory from these adults is that the boys will stay in the program longer for the adventure. The problem with that model is that the adults who failed to build a successful older scout troop program are the same adults who are going to build the Venturing Crew. They don't understand what motivates boys to succeed and they fail just as miserably with the crew as they did with the Troop. I believe that MattR has proven himself with a successful troop program and is capable of building a successful Crew. Barry

Wow!

And this is likely the result. 7 out of 10 Venture (Venturing) Crews fail in their first five years because the adults burn out. I've always looked at that statistic as a failure of the program overall. But maybe I need to think outside the box. Maybe disposable scouting is ok and should be supported for what it is. After all that five years might be a life changing experience for many of those scouts. Hmm, I will think on that. Barry

Please NJ, give me a list of these kids that were kicked out. Shesh, talk about revisionist history. As much as you want to paint the BSA as this bad program, it was one of the most inclusive organizations for kids. Ironically less kids today will participate than during the bad years you like to impress on everyone. Barry

That was a very good reply Eamonn and reflective of a typical well run district. One thing that I learned about districts is that they set the tone for how the units run their programs. We talk here a lot about units being left alone and doing their own thing if the district would just get out of the way. But, there are very few adults that can just step into running a unit successfully without some passing of knowledge. There has to be (should be) a known common approach to guiding units toward the common goal of success. Without even getting into the information given in each training course, you would be surprised how much influence the training committee has on unit programs. Truth is only 10 percent of units are independent enough to do their thing without some outside guidance. The training committee is the most common method for tying all units together as a district. All districts teach the same syllabuses, but all district training committees have their own specific personalities and expectations. I used to teach adults at Wood Badge that if they want to change common bad habits at a unit level, get on the district training committee. I know this by experience. Also, few people really respect the power of the Key 3 leadership. The personality of the Key 3 sets the general tone of how units will run their program. And, I personally believe that the District Commissioner is the key person of the influence. A good DC will handle the DE and use him to the Districts best advantage with the council, as well as guiding the District Committee Chairman to managing the district chairman. Plus, the DC has one other big advantage and that is the army of UCs to help tract unit programs and shape unit performance, OR NOT. Good or bad, I beleive in most cases that the quality of units in a district are the reflection of the District Commissioner. District Commissioners rarely get the credit they deserve (good or bad) because they work in the shadows of all the other chairs and leaders. To me it’s not a chicken or egg concept with District and units. The district is simply the higher level of expectation and quality performance of units. Without the district, the unit is only as good as their best leader. But the district has the responsibility of setting expectations and guiding the units to perform. They have the power if they just use it correctly. Barry

I took it that the can of worms was her church leadership. Barry

Hmm, so it's all on the boys. I don't know stosh, there are a lot of successful boy run troops around. Sometimes failure is the result of adult leaders just doing it wrong. Not all adults have what it takes to run a troop. Obviously nobody here can know how you really run your program, but even the best of us change and tune our programs to meet the boys needs. Barry

We had several LDS scouts in our troop because they didn't like the way the LDS troop was run. Barry

Sounds like your scout just wanted a break from responsibility. You have never agreed when I’ve said this before Stosh, but the nature of boys before puberty is to hang in groups and play games. Leadership takes them out of the group and away from the games even when they are leading in the games. It is not the same thing. Prepubescent boys are the opposite of loners, they need to be unidentifiable among the members of the group. I learned this from my Child Psychologist SM buddy. And after working with hundreds of scouts, I agree. These boys don't have the leadership mentality in them yet because instinctively they don't like to be separated from the group, especailly in a boy run group. From a nature perspective, being set apart exposes them to danger. In contemporary reality they don't get to play the games with their friends. Adults try to compensate these scouts with complements and rewards for the extra burden. That works for a while, but eventually the stress catches up and they rebel some way or another. I used to counsel adults of new troops with young scouts to shorten the scouts time in leadership so they get the experience without getting into burnout. It’s tough to say how long that is, but the boys will start to express their weariness of the responsibility in one way or another. I tell them, when a scout dreads coming to meetings, he has had enough. I understand your philosophy of letting scouts lead until they want to hand it off, but the maturity of this age makes it difficult for them to independently make these kinds of decisions and they certainly don’t want to disappoint the adults. The adults have to be conscious of the scouts experience and compensate until the scouts reach a maturity where they make the decisions on their own. Starting a new troop with young scouts is very hard. Adults HAVE TO LEARN more faster than the scouts to keep up. Barry

I think most SMs and SPLs would like to meet the scout and his family of who is making this type of request. I certainly would have a few questions for your family. One suggestion would be for your son to call and request a meeting between your family, the SM and SPL at their next troop meeting. This would provide the time and place for everyone to meet each other and see the troop in action at the same time. Barry

I always had good luck with Eagles because they know scout skills and have a general idea of the boys side of the program. They are much more patient with the boys because they know there is more to scouting than leading and advancement. Barry

Isn't it interesting that you didn't find the doctor comparison odd. I wasn't comparing anybody, I think most folks got that. I was giving examples to support the point that our reputation is just as much an influence to others as our actions. Some here are implying that whether or not someone's personal life is known or not, their image is only what they project personally in front of the group, which of course isn't true. I also have gay friends, relatives, and coworkers, I don't understand what your point was there. And I guess using the word evil was just an emotional vent to be condescending, but I'm confident you just didn't kick your kids out the door and wish them the best of luck. By the way, I'm about to be a grandpa, so I'm past guessing and experimenting with raising a family and into reflecting my observations and life experiences. Barry

You only have to see a gay pride parade to understand that is a sexual issue. Being identified as gay or homosexual is an automatic tag of sexuality. A SM who is a known KKK member doesn't have to say a word about racism to be publicly tagged a racist. A SM who is a doctor may never say a word about his private life, but because of his reputation, he would likely be called on first with an injury during a troop activity. Our reputations are very much part of role modelling. We risk our kids everyday by the roll models they interact with. As parents, it behooves us to protect our kids from being influenced by people who model behaviors we believe are dangerous. Just because we may not feel some behaviors are risky doesn't mean we shouldn't respect those parents who do. Barry

No, but many young adults go through times in their lives where they are very mixed up and might try things in their struggles. The community is supposed to protect our kids during these times by holding a generalized expectation for our youth, but we live in times now where anything goes. Didn't the Girls Scouts just admit a 6 year old cross dresser or something like that? My personal opinion is that situation is bad parenting and the community shouldn't role acceptance of it. Those who spend time in the bible will tell you that there is a lot said about the boundaries of sexuality because it is a very powerful force. It wouldn't take much for someone very confused about their life to be mislead. Barry

It's entertaining to me that this role modeling stuff seems to go right over your heads. Studies have shown that kids who come from divorced homes are more likely to divorce when they become adults. Kids who are around smokers are more likely to smoke and kids who come from homes of drug users are more likely to use drugs. Is that so surprising? Roll models do have an effect on those who observe them in one way of the other. One can't prevent our kids from being exposed to all people who exhibit dangerous behaviors, but most parents try. Now I can understand that many believe homosexuality is normal by birth, but to many others homosexual acts are not normal by birth and are very dangerous behaviors. Barry