DugNevius

what exactly goes on atthese trainings?

Red Feather- what do you mean by "rotate"? In our troop there is no limit to how many 6 month terms patrol leaders stay PL, but for the most part the average time is 1 year or more.

If you are a member of that troop then i can see wearing the uniform is suitable. However, i dont think there is a need for a "panamanian general" shirt with over and beyond the amount of needed patches and additives.

Safety issues would be the one area that i would think others should step in. Not much more then that.

Wear a suit

4 scouts?

In addition to Philmont our Troop does regular 70 mile hikes on the Maine AT finishing off in Baxter State Park and Mount Katahdin. Its a really beautiful area, and off all the mountains ive hiked through out New England, Mt Katahdin is my favorite by far and really, only second to Mount Baldy in Philmont in my heart. Its about One mile up and shaped like half a volcano crater, with one half of it called "the Knife's Edge" because the rim is only about ten yards wide with sheer cliffs on each side. Its a really easy hike to put together. The main thing is to lock down camping reservations in Baxter State Park which will allow you to hike the mountain in one day. From that all you need is transportation, food and gear. Its first come first serve on the AT, dont bother trying to get the lean-tos because its the beginning of the AT and there are a lot of people boasting they are going all the way to Atlanta. Funny thing is, if you hike the AT in southern NY and Northern NJ, you dont find a single Thru hiker. Ive done this trek in 1994 and 2000 and will be back in 2007.

As i said in MeritBadge.com Lipton makes "side dishes" that you can find in any major food store. Stuff like Spanish rice, taco rice, beef teryaki, pastas like creamy garlic shells or broccoli and cheddar pastsa... Its very light weight. Add a package of tuna or chicken (instead of cans it now comes in packages) to the pot and you have a filling, and light weight! one pot meal. i just added a quick list of backpacking food ideas to our troop website. http://www.troop21maplewood.org/37%20One%20Pot%20Backpacking%20Dinners.txt

we had the same issue with one scout, who when joining was unable to go i the water. 6 years later, after summer camp many years and our troop swims, hes almost able to TAKE the test. But now he is 17. Hes not going to get eagle. But without scouts he would never be where he is today when it comes to, along with many things, swimming.

those meritbadges are done on occasion, such as personal fitness, first aid and backpacking as one month blocks for the meeting programs. The scouts leading it will meet with the conselor and make a plan of the meetings demos whichthey will carry out in 3-4 weeks, through either large group instruction or smaller groups rotating. The merit badge counselor will observe the scouts leading it, throw in a point here or there and ensure that its being taught properly. If there are things to be handed in "like paperwork" the scouts leading the meritbadge will grade them first and then hand them over to the counselor to be checked a second time. When the counselor is satisfied with the work done he signs off themerit badge. I dont think anyone is missing the chance to form relationships with the leaders. In fact, i have learned that if instead of going to the boys, they come to you. Ive never felt the lack of any bonds, and, because im only 26, the kids come to me even more then they would other adults, wanting advice, wanting to show me things they are interested in, to get me to play games. Ive had a few invite me to NHL games which i most gladly went along. In fact, some scouts that are now grown up i consider good friends and myself am very close friends with my scoutmaster. Along with this they are much more accustomed to having things done by older boys, and the older boys are allowed more space to lead. >>"Watchout, we are here" - I remember being intentionally confrontational. It was a lot of fun, got me some really cool reactions, but didn't really get me anywhere:

Anarchist- I dont think Eagledads post was that insulting or meant to be, but it had a point about your worst case senarios. We cant go through life expecting the worst. Do we not let our daughter's date because they may get pregnant? Do we not allow our boys to play football because their teammates may give them a wedgie? Do we not park our car on the street because it may get stolen? Guarding to protectivly retracts from too much. You cant limit responsablities of scouts because they may abuse them. FB- excellent response. Our troops are not that vastly different, our goals are the same. You said: "I was also a SM during the time we had BOR's from TFT through 1st Class with Scouts in charge. I felt that they did an adequate job and I did not interfere. There was an occasional problem but we generally worked it out. When the duties changed, we changed. Was it difficult to change, yes but we accepted it. How did we come to accept the change? In a large unit, there are plenty of duties to go around. Everyone is working hard to do their job." Therefore this leads me to belive that the core issue at hand is not that the scouts are deprived but just that the scoutmaster for our troop back in the 60s or 70's (was the same guy from 1961 to 1989) did not go along with the change. As i have explained the scouts get just as much mentoring and chance to express concerns as any other troop, the adults have as much chance to teach and observe and help as any other troop. So, the difference, when it gets down to it is we didnt change along with the book. The rules arent broken, they are bent. The scouts going through it have the same experiences, plus they experience sitting on the other side of the table. "I wish I could bring some of the young men before you right now and let them testify of the trust shown in them. Some of the stories are pretty funny. Many of the young men have since gone on to take over the Unit, excel in school, excel in work, and have families of their own. I am proud to have assisted them on part of their journey." Thats great to hear! That means the program is working. We too have the same experience. I myself have gone through this troop to get eagle and become an ASM, as have two other current ASM eagles. My friend in school and scouting and another Eagle Scout was for a time before he had a baby an ASM. The SM himself was in our troop. ("Life" for life) My scoutmaster as a scout and two of his assistants were also Eagle Scouts in the troop. The scoutmaster before him was an alumni. This explains two things. One, why the program has not changed since the 60's, and two, that the program of having boys sit on BOR was not the destructive mistake some fear. Do adults belong in this program at all? Of course they do. It would be impossible for it not to, but as guides not much more. We adults in our troop handle the paperwork, the fundraising, the legistics, are the safety net and counsel. The rest lies in the hands of the scouts. They decide what to do at the meetings. They pick out where they want to go camping and when. They decide who gets the leadership positions through democracy. The carry out the plans they made, advance the scouts up to first class. Demos are very very rarely taught by an adult. Many times the older scouts may actually teach merit badges to the troop and all the counselor does is watch and sign the cards. Scouts even purchase equipment needed for meetings and trips. On the average camping trip that is not backpacking, all the adults do is sit by the fire, read a book, take a nap and play games. Meals are 95% of the time planned, purchased, cooked and cleaned up by only scouts. campsites are set up and broken down and cleaned by the scouts. Discipline is 90% of the time handled by the scouts. We observe and comment and guide. Boy run, adult observed.

and again i must point out that Adults sit on BOR from Star to eagle, we have Scoutmaster's conferences for those very purposes as well as what i stated earlier about evaluations with adults that are in effect BOR themselves in which scoutmasters and the CC sit and talk with scouts in leadership positions.

Lets not forget though that we DO have adults sit on BoRs from Star to eagle. OldGray- I guess its a matter of whats more important to you, benifiting the scouts or upholding regualtions. If bending a rule helps scouts, if reward exceeds cost, is it wrong? Im sure we are all guilty of doing such things.

Old Grey- There are 4 other troops in this town and the neighboring one and so there are many scouts with friends in other troops and we have had a number of scouts since ive been involved that have left those to come to ours. The general concensus is the boys aer confused as to why scouts would want other systems of BoR and patrol selection and dont want to change. Several scouts have read this very debate in other forums and still like our system. Fuzzybear- It still seems as though you have the opinion "give em a yard and they will take a mile."

wow. Interesting responses. Im amazed at the little faith we have in the young men we are handling here. So many bad senerios, so pessimistic. Oppressive and abusive bullies with power. It's lLord of the flies. But we are forgetting that the leaders of the troop, the PL and SPL that are sitting on or BoRs have been democraticly elected by the members of the troop for six month terms. These are votes of confidence in leadership. The members of the PLC got there because they demonstrated leadership and fairness to the other scouts. Scout who were oppressive and abusive did not win elections and therefore are not in the position to abuse the power as stated in your many examples. This is something i observe quite often during our elections. Therefore, if a scout is elected for 3 years in a row, its because his peers find him fair and effective. When PL did not live up to the expectations of those that voted for him he is not relected. Its all checks and balances. In ScoutMasters conferences some of the questions always asked are "How is your PL treating you? What are your thoughts on the SPL and his staff, and what would you change in the program. And again, you are under the impression that most teens would rather open up to adults and authority figures more easily then they would their friends and peers, and this is an outlandish idea. And then to think they would open up to adults they know even less then their parents or the scoutmasters? Its all checks and balances. If the "small, shy and geeky" scout feels his patrol leader has been unfairly piling the "scut work" on him, he doesnt vote for that scout in a leadership position. If you dont think these young boys are aware of who is doing their job, who isnt, who is taking the brunt of the leadership, grunt work, and so on... you need to reinvest some faith in your boys. Just last week, in a conversation with a committe member who was car pooling several second class scouts to meetings he remarked on how interesting it was to overhear their car ride conversations about these very same things. Democracy works. Im sure if you released your grip and had some trust in your scouts you will be amazed at the responsibilities they can handle. as for the council, the scoutmaster and CC has had conversations with severel members who said simply, as long as we are having the scoutmasters conference there is nothing wrong with doing it our way.

The ranks of scout to first class are much different then Star to eagle. Those lower ranks are achived through basic scout and camping skills taught by the scouts themselves, building a foundation. The rank of star is a turning point, a rank achieved by the scout himself for which he must take the majority of the initiative to achieve it. The merit badges are his choice, contacting MB counsolers is up to him himself and most often done oustide meetings and trips, the responsabilities are his choice as well as he must obtain a leadership position to complete the requirments from Star and above. With the increase in comlexity in the ranks the BORs increase in complexity and deepth. The young men can properly evaluate and assess scouts from scout to 1st class and from there the adults take over. Our council is aware of our system and does not disapprove of it.

A bit dramatic. If adults have cell phones safety precautions are met.

Anarchist- First off, i appreciate that you are not being confrontational at all. Im glad we can actually discuss such issues without anyone getting upset or offended or running off to the board admin seeking to edit other peoples statements. Thank you. Now, onto the discussion. I am aware of the ideas behind adults on BOR as well as scoutmasters on them. However it is my opinion, and that of every adult leader before my time and those that share the workload today, that this is really indeed busy work. There are plenty of chances for our adults to have free exchange of discussion with scouts. The scoutmaster conference is for this very purpose. Our troop comittee is very active on trips and in meetings where they have chances to interact and better yet, to observe. We also have conferences with all scouts in leadership positions 2-3 times during their 6 month terms in which we have open discussion and evaluations. Lastly, at the end of every year we give all the scouts the chance to annonymously fill out evaluation slips on the troop program and adult leaders. This is all above and beyond, because the program is from top to bottom run by the scouts, from the meetings, instructions, trip planning and running and all outside activities are all run by the boys themselves, our purpose, as our Troop Comittee chairman likes to put it, is to "handle paperwork, give advice and to make sure it doesnt become lord of the flies." As far as will scouts be more open with adults, im confident that for every scout that will be more open to an adult, there is another that is more willing to open up honestly to his peers. After all, they are teens and no matter how hip a 40 year old scoutmaster may be, hes still regarded by many as an authority figure rather then someone a scout can be 100 honest with. Lastly, i believe that the percieved bias, variable levels/difficulty of 'skills' testing (fairness)and other unseemly complaints has a lot to do with the lack of trust in the responsibilities young men can handle and a lack of a program that builds scouts to such a responsable level to conduct things like lower rank BOR and other jobs. Leading by example is a MAJOR part of leadership and therefore a major part of scouting and if the teachers were sound and fair it is more often then not that their students themselves will be sound and fair teachers. The system therefore powers itself along. As a scout who went this system i had never seen a problem with the scouts who handled me, never heard a complaint from my friends through scouting, and have yet to hear a word of dis-satisfaction from scouts, comittee members or parents of this system of BOR.

>>>"... if 1 scout is not in uniform, they all get that way. If one is missing a scarf, they all start missing theirs real quick." Why would they do that? Would the boy without a neckerchief feel inadequate if he's the only one without? When a formal uniform inspection is done, points are awarded for the completness of each boy's uniform. There's no bonus for the group all missing the same parts. This would be classified as an inductive falacy known as Slippery Slope.

>>I hadn't heard the "deathbed Eagle" term before either. I agree that I'd rather have a bunch of deathbed Eagles than a bunch of 14 year old Eagles that disappear just when they are at the perfect age to lead the troop. Back in my day, most of the guys made Eagle around 16. If they were 16, mature, and shown good leadership, they were almost always made JASM. This was a big deal to us. Suddenly we had an "pseudo-adult" patch on our shirts. We got to eat with the adults on campouts. We started doing things that ASMs would normally do. It was cool. At 16-17 you are wanting to be treated like an adult, and our troop did everything they could to make it feel that way. Maybe we need to ask the question, is a 14 year old an eagle scout? Does age factor?

So what happens if a scout doesnt remove the ring?

John D- The scouts BOR of Star through eagle are very much dealt with an adult committee for all those purposes. Therefore through scouting the boys are getting to experience both sides. Therefore, the scouts arent losing anything and gaining more experience.

Why should the scouts sit on BOR up to first class? The more responsibility you allow a scout to have the more growth he can obtain. All the skills from scout to 1st class are taught by the boys so they should also be able to sit on the BOR. They are as capable of handling such a position as an adult and the experience of being on the other side of the table is a valuble one. dont mean to throw anything in anyones face. Sorry if you think i had done that. Just a reaction from dealing with guys on other websites.

I think you hit it on the head. "I did stay active with my troop, but there wasn't much left to do." Advancement gives scouts goals to reach but after Eagle its a little more difficult to see goals to strive for. There are ony so many times you can go to the same summer camp, the same weekend hikes the same Jamborees... Do something different, do something big. Go to Philmont New Mexico, go to the Northern Tier base, or the Florida Sea base, or just build a unique trek of your own. Dont be too routine.

very true Eagledad. I may have led people to misinterpret me, i agree with what you said about the difficulty being the parents. The idea behind this all is MOSTLY for the parents, not the kids. Parents are much more difficult to get to severe the umbilical cord. Parents ARE indeed the first and biggest obstacle when dealing with homesickness.