DugNevius

Note on Traditional Family Values: They change. After all, the traditional family values back 200 years ago was slave ownership. Back until the 60's it was segregation of Blacks and Whites. Since im only 26, id be curious on what policies the BSA had in the pre-civil rights movement regarding segragation in scouting.

some people are saying that the atheists would be out lobbying to convert the children. I dont think this is really the case. Yesterday morning, as my alarm went off i found i was listening to a radio commercial for the LDS. It got me thinking: The different sects of christianity all have commercials on TV and radio seeking to promote their religion. On TV there are also the telavangalists and the heavily christian themed television shows like "7th heaven" or "Joan of Arcadia" or "Touched By an Angel" To my knowledge there has NEVER been any radio or TV commerical trying to convert people to the idea that there is NO God. Likewise, on public access or sunday morning tv there are no preachers on pulpits imforming veiwers of the lack of a God. I am also convinced that a show centering around Muslim beliefs, the islamic versians of "7th heaven" or "Touched By Allah" because mass amounts of christians would be up in arms and screaming bloody murder. How about a show about atheism? forget about it.

The fact that Bob has refused to answer his own question only further strengthens the idea that his sole purpose was mere flamebait.

Thats right Tevorum. Now i wonder how Evmori would feel about a Muslim or Jewish Scoutmaster who really tries to convert all his scouts FROM christianity.

I dont think all atheists are going to try to convince kids there is no god as a whole just like i dont feel all chatholics are trying to convert all non catholic scouts to catholicism.

well Dan, do you stand on Baldy and try to convince jewish scouts to accept jesus? I know i dont.

very true Dan. I apologize. But still i dont think its fair to group all atheists to be represented by Merlyn LeRoy just as it would be unfair to have Dahlmer represent homosexuals or Douglas Smith to represent all Scout leaders.

Dan, when was this about M Leroy? Thats a whole seperate topic and not really relevant.

Lynda and Semper are saying pretty much what i was thinking. In my [limited 15 years] experience most 13-14 year old eagles fall into two catagories. Paper eagles and eagles from eagle mills. A lot of them had a father scoutmaster that arranged things to be signed and some came from troops that made it as easy as possible, in an almost socialistic fashion to get eagle. This is not always the case. But the journey is the importance, not the destination. The longer the scout is on the journey and the more experiences he encounters, the better for it he will be. DFor an analogy, Lets say you take three groups of scouts in NY and tell them their goal is to reach LA. One group you give tickets for an airplane. Another cars with full gas tanks. The third you give them only what they can carry and a map. The first group is in LA in a matter of hours. All they had to do was find their seat, watch the in flight movie and sip cokes. All of them are going to get to LA. The second group took a bit longer, they had to navagate the roads a bit and there was the potential for accidents but most will make it to LA. The third group had to walk, or hitch rides, or earn transportation, get food, get places to stay, deal with hangups, injuries and a million crossroads that led them elsewhere other then LA. Most of these dont make it to LA but some do. Of those of the three groups that make it, which have gained the most of their experience, learned new tricks, become more self reliant and resourceful? Well, i think thats an easy one. Of all the kids i have worked with, through boyscouts, school or other programs, i didnt know any 13 year olds that were eagle worthy. I knew a lot that had the potential to be eagles, and some of those did in fact become eagles. Rushing scouts through the advancement program leaves little time for proper development and cuts down experience. In a boys life, the period between 13 and 17 is huge for development and not many boys are the same at 16 and a half as they were at 13 and a half.

>>First of all this was not a pertinent question in the first place because it is an all white or all black question with no gray middle of the road, which is the reality of our world today. This thread was nothing more than Bob throwing more flamebait out there to incite others and he was successful, turning scouters against each other for no good reason,typical. The BSA has its policy set and probably will never change unless forced to by legislation, court case, or a significant loss of revenue. This is more than choosing between a gay trained leader or a straight untrained one, it touches some to the core of what they believe is moral or is immoral. Bob is probably chuckling to himself over the disharmony he has created, you do not have to lower yourselves to his level. AMEN to that. This is not a "pertinent" question. It is an attempt at both starting an argument as well as the direct insinuation that homosexuals are bad. Then, at the same time, getting offended at those offended by bigotry. That seems odd. There are a lot of levels of bigotry but it all stems from the same two things, ignorance and fear. Sexism, racism and homophobia are ALL forms of bigotry. To leave the BSA if their policy against the homosexuals were to change, regardless of whether or not any homosexuals would have any contact with your troop is bigotry. To make claims that there is a direct correlation between homosexuals and abuse is ignorance. To say "I dont mind homosexuals, i know a few, but i would never want them around my kids because the are a bad influence." is fear and bigotry, and not really that different from saying "I dont mind black people, I know a few, but i would never want them around my stuff because they may steal it." Blanket statements are ignorant, but they seem to be used frequently in arguments against homosexuals in BSA to support the case against them, even if its not outwardly, its still insinuating. Homosexuals are a bad influence. Why? Because they will try to turn kids into homosexuals? Because they will try to touch the kids? neither of these are true statements at all. Not all homosexuals are evil, just as not all priests or presidents are evil, but some people are accepting one blanket statement while resenting the others. Foto's point seems to be, if you are going to classify homosexuals are bad influences and threats to the moral fiber of the youth, THEN you must also hold catholic priests to that same ignorant standards and not allow your sons and daughters to be influenced by them, because a few touched boys and girls. There is some accepted bigotry in our society as of late. Prejudice isnt the clear loud force it was before. Now its become subtle but just as potent.

Anarchist: "I know homosexually does not equal pedophillia but there is a scientific correlation..." Prove it.

Im still curious why people find my dislike for bigotry to be disgusting. After all, it seems clear that this topic was created to be antagonistic.

Patrol trips are a big part of building patrol unity as well as teaching a lot to the leader. In our troop each patrol has one patrol trip. The patrol leader is in charge of schedualing the trip, contacting adult leaders, getting Staff members to attend, planning the menu, cooking, putting together a program and leading his patrol. On these outings members of other patrols dont attend, its strictly for that patrol only. We also have a lot of comeptition between the patrols. Afterall, boys will be boys. A lot of our sporting events are by patrol, the entire month of April for us is devoted to this, including our olympics, and our next meeting will be without uniform and strictly atheletic activities. The patrols also compete all year for "Patrol of the year" They win this through a point system, certain things earn them points and at the end of the year the patrol with the most points is awarded Patrol of The Year and their name goes up on the plaque that dates back to the 60's.

Never had this in my troop, but the woman who ran the youth protection program that i attended was at summer camp this past summer with her husband the SM, so, im thinking its not all that bad.

Im not really sure why you so offended. You are upset because im against discrimination and bigotry? is bigotry a "bad" word? I didnt point out anyone in specific at all, simply stated id be more comfortable with homosexuals who had not attended training then those who would be prejeduced against homosexuals as a whole.

um... not really Bob, what is your point?

I would much rather have untrained homosexual leaders running a troop then to have bigots who discriminate and promote intolerance against minorities, other religions and homosexuals.

C'mon Dug, you can argue all you want, but this was over the top! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Eagledad, i wouldnt care. I dont know about the rest of you, but as a strait male i dont really talk to young boys about hetero sex or sexual activities of any hetero nature nor do i push heterosexuality on them. So why should people feel homosexuals would so forcefully try to impress homosexuality on kids?

Not only would i continue scouting, id be glad that those they left did so and confident that scouting is better off without people like that.

I dont ever recall being asked, asking or hears others ask sexual orientation ever in scouting. But im still curious who here would pull their scouts from scouting if the BSA changed its policy regarding gay leaders IF no gay adults or youth in their area joined scouting. Its just like the whole battle against gay marriages. Does it effect any heterosexual people if two gay men or women got married? No. It doesnt. The whole "marriage is sacred" is the only response but not all that worthy with shows like "Who wants to marry a millionaire" "The Bacholer" and other marraige based reality-comedies that have taken over our countries fascinations AND the fact that heterosexual marriages have a HUGE rate of failure, more then any other country and well above majority.

I agree. In our troop we try to promote this by having each patrol have a patrol campout and also having a lot of competition between patrols including our "troop Olympics".

Should adults push their sons to reach eagle at 14 because thats about the time most boys begin to drift from scouting? Should we adults make it as easy as possible for boys to make eagle? Does a scout who is 14 and has been in scouting for four years have the same amount of experience as a scout that is 16 and has been in scouting for 6 years? Or shpuld the bar be raised so that while every scout has the chance to clear it those that do are of a higher caliber of scouts?

Is a 13 year old an eaglescout? technicly he can be. Should he be? Well, thats up for debate.

well technically the same argument can be made against the influence of the Religious Right over children. Snakeeater, would you pull your children from the BSA if the BSA allowed homosexuality even if no homosexuals joined any troop near you in a leader capacity? Would you allow your sons to attend a school if their teacher was a homosexual?