DugNevius

If there are a million possibilities, does God know which exact one you will choose? Tort, I simply believe that its ostentatious for one human to judge another based on the terribly limited and ignorant as well as subjective understanding of God, and to judge a person based on a sexuality is in no way any different then to judge someone based on race or religion. Only God can truly judge, if that God is perfect and we humans are in no way close to being perfect in any form.

If god doesnt know something then he doesnt know everything. Tortdog- many religions throughout history have worshiped Gods that had flaws. I have not stated that i believe that God is Imperfect or perfect, merely i understand that he is either Perfect or we have free will. Moreover, i can ask the question why would someone want to worship a god that discriminates?

"if the teacher really knows exactly how you're going to do on the test--that you are in fact powerless to do anything different from what the teacher knows you will do--the test is meaningless." This is exactly my point. So how can it be true here but not true elsewhere? If God doesnt know what yu will do then God doesnt know everything. He is not all knowing, omnipotent, unlimited, all powerful or perfect. If he were, he would know what you will do. He cant have something he doesnt know, and still know everything. If he knows everything then there is nothing he doesnt know, including what each of us will do. You are all expressing examples of a God that is imperfect and limited but defining him as limitless. When something is Black it is not white. When something is White it is not black. Grays do exist, but greys are neither Black or white, simply shades of gray. Something that is Perfect is not limited or flawed. Something that is flawed is not Perfect.

Hunt- by definition Perfect must include all essential to the whole. Knowledge is part of the whole being of God. If he were to lack some knowledge he would therefore be imperfect. Many have already agreed that God has perfect knoweldge. To have perfect knoweldge he must KNOW EVERYTHING, including what we will do. Let me put it this way: Life to god is like some movie we have seen a million times. Lets say... Star Wars. We know all the plot twists, we know every character and what they will say and what they do. We know that Darth Vader is Luke's father. We know he will cut of Lukes hand. We know that the princess will fall in love with Han solo. So, every time we watch it the same thing will happen. Never will it turn out that Luke is killed by Jabba The hut. Yoda will never turn out to be evil. Darth Vader will never say "Luke, i am your uncle." These charactors dont have any choice. Its pre written. We KNOW what they will do. So, Fuzzy Bear comes to a cross roads. He can Turn Left, turn right or turn back the way he came. God, having perfect knowledge, because its essential to the whole of being perfect in every sense, Knows that Fuzzy will turn left. Fuzzy will not turn right. He will turn left. If he were to turn right God was wrong. But a perfect God is never wrong. So Fuzzy will turn left. He was never going to turn right or around. He was always going to turn left. There was no option but for him to turn left. So, it is as if there was no right turn or possibility that he could turn around. The absense of options is the absense of choice. Fuzzy didnt have a choice. If God is perfect. Sure it may seem as if God had changed his mind. But, we as humans can begin to understand the workings of the mind of God, may it not be that God's mind didnt change at all he simply knew what he was going to do, two actions that contradicted each other in order to spark a result?

2+2 will always equal 4 no matter how hard you try to ignore it. Read Oedipus.

"Thus He is able to see what we have done before we have done it. That sight does not make my choice anymore less "free" than were He to have closed His eyes and ignored what He can see before him." wrong. The fact that he knows what we will do eliminates any choice. There is only one choice in life: To do exactly what God forsaw. It does not matter if linear time works for god or not. There may be three doors but you will ONLY go through the God that God knows yu will. "He is 100% wrong on that one thing. But since God has perfect knowledge, He will make the right "forecast"." Exactly. He will never be wrong. He will always make the perfect forcast. So he knows 100 years from now that a little girl will accept ice cream from her father who at the present is not even alive. That girl will take it. So it is impossible for her NOT to take it. She doesnt have any choice at all. Or god was wrong. Because if there is NO choice, there is no free will. We can not judge if we humans are essentailly flawed ourselves, the difference between mortal man and gods. We are imperfect, aptly prone to mistakes and confusion, and our measure of morality is constantly evolving. remeber "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?? Its pompus for one human to cast down another on morality because each of us can be judged harshly for things we have done or continue to do. Its easy to understand why this whole thing is so difficult, Its a blatent contridiction in the faith of many but yet this logic is totally foolproof. Its one or the other. The idea that god is less then perfect opens up a whole pandoras box of doubts in faith, "if he can be wrong, then how often is he wrong and how do we know it?" but the idea that we mortals have no control over our actions is equally undesirable. However, it is impossible to have both, given the definitions of "Perfect Knoweldge" and "Free will", whether you care to see it or not.

Sorry Fuzzy, But while Jonah had imperfect knowledge he was doing everything God knew he would do, and therefore not making choices at all. He was doing everything he always would. No free will epressed there. Did God know he was going to try to avoid his duty? Did God know he was getting on that boat? Did God know he would be thrown over board? Did God know the whale would swallow him? Did God know he would be spit out? Did God know he would goto the city? If the answer is no to any of these questions then God's knowlegde was incomplete and he was not perfect. If the answer was Yes, then God always knew what he would do and he was never going to not do it. Ed- "We are not suppose to judge others. That's God's job." A-HA! but isnt that what many are doing in these threads against athiests and homosexuals? They are JUDGING when they say its wrong, immoral and should not be allowed. How can we say that we cant judge, its up to God, but then cast judgement?

Humans do not possess perfect knowledge. If they did they would not be humans. Therefore humans can guess but can be wrong. However many think God is perfect. Fuzzy, let us look at your example of Jonah. If God had perfect knoweldge he knew: 1)that Johan would turn and try to get out of his duty of preaching to those people 2)That the storm would come and put the boat in danger 3) That Jonah would have the crew cast him overboard 4)That the whale would swallow jonah 5)That the whale would spit him out on the shore 6)That Jonah would preach to the city 7)That Jonah would watch from the hill by the burning bush 8)That the city would repent and not be destroyed. Had he not known EVERY DETAIL of the whole story he would not be one of perfect knoweldge. There would be a limit to what he knew. If he had perfect knowledge, Jonah was never going to NOT try to run, nor was Jonah never going to reveal to the crew why the storm came, no was jonah never going to be swallowed by the whale, nor was jonah never going to not go to the city... and so on and so on. So if Jonah was NEVER going to do everything God forsaw in the story... he didnt make any choices at all. He just thought he was. Oedipus was always going to kill his father and marry his mother. Predestination is the absence of free will. Jonah, oedipus, Fuzzy Bear, even Bob White will always do exactly as a perfect God knows he will.

If God knows what your daughter will do, eat or not eat, and she doesnt do exactly what he forsaw, was he 100% right? Things can be less than 100% correct. However, if something is perfect, by definition, then it must always be 100% correct.

"Based on the circumstances at hand she either will or will not take the ice cream. She may have just eaten a banana split when the cone is offered. At that point, she would not take the ice cream from me and my knowledge of that choice would not deprive her of her freedom." Yes, because you are not God possessing perfect knowledge. You are self described imperfect. However had you possessed Gods perfect Knoweldge you would know that she had just eaten ice cream and would turn you down. "As mentioned, my example does not mean there was no other alternative. Rather, my knowledge consisted of knowledge of what she would do in that circumstance. If I, being imperfect, am able to know beforehand what my daughter will do in certain circumstances (what choices she would take), why would not God, being perfect, know better than I? How does that knowledge rob man of his choice?" Will God know what choice you will make? If he does there is no limitation to his knowledge. Perfect Knowledge. Let me ask you this: If God knows that your daughter will eat the ice cream, is she NOT going to eat the ice cream, was God right? In what way can someone be wrong but still be 100% right?

Hunt- It is impossible for something to have limitations or flaws and be perfect. It is the very definition of perfect, not simply my interpretation if the word. Lacking nothing essential. Not knowing what you will do is a limitation to God's knowledge. Therefore he is imperfect if this be the case. Show an example of something being perfect, but lacking something. Tortdog- If your daughter will always take the ice cream then she will never not take the ice cream. 100% of the time she will take the ice cream. Choice depends on the existance of alternatives. If 100% of the time she will take the ice cream then there is no other laternative then to take it. Thus, there is no choice in the matter. By definition of choice there must be alternatives. If yu possessed perfect knowledge, as some believe God does, then yu know what she will do. If she were to turn down the ice cream despite what yu thought then you would be wrong. If you are wrong then your knoweldge is not perfect. Ed- If we can not begin to understand God in human terms then how can we humans begin to judge other humans based on God and morality based on our ignorant and vastly limited knowlegde of God? How can we say "God thinks this _________" if we can not begin to undertsnad anything of what God thinks? If we are ignorant in understanding God, can it not be true that nothing can be solidly defined as right or wrong?

well hunt, isnt the definition of Perfect: -Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind. -Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen. -Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient. As i stated before: If God is perfect his knowledge is perfect If His knowledge is perfect then He knows everything If He knows everything then he knows exactly what i will do. If He knows what i will do i will not do anything but what He knows i will do. A perfect God HAS to know exactly what will happen in the future. If God does not know exactly what is to happen forever and ever then there is a limitation in his knowledge and therefore is imperfect. God either knows everything that will ever happen, or he is not perfect. It cant be both.

Not exactly. Im not assuming anything really. Simply, If there is a "perfect" God then there is no free will. If their is Free Will there is no "perfect" God. Logically there can not be both. With the idea of innate behavior, then therefore can one with an innate behavior that is deemed against the moral fiber of normal society be really faulted for behavior that is innate? Isnt it true though our justice system does not prosecute citizens when it was innate behavior that made them act immorally or criminally, because they could not control and therefore be blamed for what they did? Maybe this is why a lot of homophobes refuse to accept homosexuality as innate. Its a choice to them. The homosexuals chose to go against God. Perfect God.

"On free will: Both religious and non-religious trains of thought can lead some people to the philosophical conclusion that free will does not exist. Thus, if God preordains what we will do, there is no free will. Similarly, if all our actions are simply caused by prior random events in the universe, there is no free will." Exactly. This isnt a leap in logic. This is exact by definition. And if we are toeliminate logic from the debate of God or homosexuality, then there can be no argument at all and nothing can be defined as wrong or right. Therefore, either God is perfect and we can not fault homosexuals for being homosexual, because god has made them this way and it is not a choice, or God is flawed and you cant blame homosexuals because the creator either made them this way or he goofed.

The adult to help this scout seems more and more to be a Profesional. The question is what is best for the troop.

Bob if this is another attempt at pointing my lack of beeing a woodbadge member as the cause of any problems in our troop its weak, being that the two adults at summer camp during the time of his breakdown, the scoutmaster and the troop committee chairman are both Trained. The homesickness was the beginning of what has become a chain of events but not the cause, simply what put the scout on the radar. As someone who "understands the needs and characteristics" of this boy his parents have had me work with him on several occasions, meeting with him several times in neutral conditions to try to work out his issues. Each time he would show signs of improvment but it was always fleeting, followed by hitting new lows of disruptive behavior. The scoutmaster had talks with him but the scout resents the scoutmaster and wont even aswer direct questions asked of him. His parents have had talks with him. His older brother has tried to work things out. Its like talking to a rock.

That is true. Im not sure what you are intending to imply, however another truth is one scout can not monopolize the time and energy of the adults on a trip and there is only so much an adult can do. Some scouts have extenuating circumstances that lead to the fact that there may not be all that much two adults can do in order to allow that scout to function. Scoutmasters and adult chaparones are not Child Pyscologists and it is unfair for them to be forced to be that. Eliminating the homesickness all together from the issues with this boy, we are still in a tough position that would potentially ruin the entire summer trip. It is not because of the homesickness that parents and scouts have voiced concern, but rather the disruptive, negative and destructive behavior.

homesickness has other causes besides the need for better food or sleeping arrangments. In any case homesickness is just a small part of the plethora of issues with this scout. This sunday the troop is meeting for a PT. If this scout and/or is father is not in attendance they will be cut from the summer trip.

Honestly, if this scout was any other scout he would have been cut a long while ago, but because of who his family is and all that they have accomplished and done for the troop he has been given more then fair amounts of leniency. Its safe to say for a while now he has been a sore subject that the adult leaders have been avoiding. He is not the most undisciplined scout and there are a few other scouts that have done unscout-like actions which needed disciplinary action, but hes a constant moral sapper and has installed zero confidence in all involved in our summer program. We are beginning to come to the conclusion that this scout is beyond salvaging. But if he were to go, his departure may effect other scouts. It may raise doubts in the hearts of scouts that are clear potentails for eagle and troop leaders and it may influence younger scouts to the negative as well. If he is to stay he is a huge liability to the group going west and is a constant distraction for all leaders adult and scout and sets a horrible example.

Another what to do about a trouble scout topic. This summer our troop is going out to Philmont, trek 32 and 30. The 14 boys going out (2 crews) have been signed up and in our training program since September. We are heading out west in 72 days. Every scout going to Philmont (as well as our southwest trip for the younger guys) have put down non-refundable deposits and have signed commitment forms and each scout and parent understands that no one is guaranteed a spot, meaning kids and adults that can not meet the physical standards and/or scouts that are disciplinary problems, suffer extreme homesickness or anything else will be cut from the trip. The last thing anyone wants is for the group to go out west, get on the trail and there be a breakdown causing the need for a scout leaving early, or having someone not able to complete the trek. During our training treks and PTs we are evaluating each member of each of the 4 crews to see how they interact with each other and how they handle everything. We have a red flag scout already. Here is a little background. This scout is the youngest of three. His two older brothers were in the troop, the oldest got Eagle in 2001 and has been an active adult leader over the years, the other made it to life. The parents have been a major part of the troop, fund raising and organizing diners have been just part of their contributions and the father was one ASM that led our southwest trip in 1998 for the younger scouts. This family has been a giant part of our troop. The youngest son, the scout in question, started off well and was on the fast track to success in scouting, wishing to follow in his oldest brothers footsteps. He advanced quickly, had great scout spirit and was all around a fun kid to have around. But he suffered homesickness at summer camp a few years ago, every night he needed attention and wouldnt go to sleep. During the regular year all seemed fairly well, or so it seemed. I and the other leaders were unaware that this scout was calling home in the middle of the night inside his tent on a hidden cell phone. Last summer he was elected patrol leader, before we headed off to summer camp. This scout was a complete disaster. His homesickness hindered every aspect of his position. He couldnt get anything done. He was too busy trying to find ways to call home to lead his patrol to make meals. He was caught several times trying to use the camp staff phone to call home. He would start fights with other troop members. There were several times where he broken down so completely that he lay on the ground in hysterics. The scoutmaster had to have several talks with him, a few of which the scout lashed out at the scoutmaster verbally. The hysterics of this scout began to spread, upsetting several of the younger scouts, within the troop and soon there were a few scouts in tears, not to mention his patrol was in shambles. Luckily, an older member of the patrol took things into his own hands and relieved the scout of his duty as PL. After summer camp his parents approached me concerned. The scout was signed up to go to Philmont and now he wasnt sure he wanted to go, the aspect of being away from home was too frightening. He had also come up with the idea that the scoutmaster was to blame for his issues and decided to hold the scoutmaster in contempt. I like to give every scout a second chance. I was also friends with his oldest brother and highly respected his parents for all they had done in the troop. I wanted this scout to stick it through. I then learned that he had influenced another scout that Philmont would not be fun and that they should quit the troop. So I had several discussions with the boys trying to get him to a) realize that the trip will be fun and an experience of a lifetime and b) the scoutmaster is not to blame. The two boys decided that they would go. Their parents paid the deposits and they signed the commitment forms. The scout had to finish out his 6 month term as PL. Needless to say it was still a disaster making us question if he needed to step down. His attitude didnt change and began again to effect the scouts in his patrol. Luckily when his term was over he was done with being a patrol leader. He continues to be an issue. He does not attend camping trips, is disruptive during meetings and misses out on our PTs which are crucial to evaluation. In an effort to help the situation his father decided to go to Philmont as well, as an adult. This hasnt helped. In fact it has added to the problem. This father is not physically up to the task of backpacking 80+ miles in NM. While he has lost weight and is doing some exercise on his own, he too has not made any trip and only attended one PT in which he could not complete running a mile. The scouts attitude is again spreading. Once again his lack of scout spirit and his disruptive nature has began to effect the moral of the crew. Other scouts and several parents have expressed concern. At a parent meeting dealing with Philmont a parent asked what guarantee we can give that this trip will not become a babysitting expedition for the adults and scout leaders because of one or two scouts. The troop committee and scoutmasters are all concerned. What are we to do? How do we deal with this situation? Only 70+ days left until we depart out west and there is little hope that this kid will step up to the plate. One option was to approach the scout and parent and give them the option of bowing out now. I worry that if the kid goes he may try to take a few scouts that are great scouts with him, but I also worry that if he continues to stick around he will sap more spirit out of the troop. As an older scout several of the younger guys look up to him and some have begun to adopt his negative attitude. Also, if he were to leave most likely the troop would lose the contributions of his parents. Any advice on how to proceed?

A non locking blade doesnt have to be used poking or stabbing to close, in fact most times a non locking blade causes injury its from regular use. The lock simply protects the user from a blade closing on a finger. Safety first.

I agree with Double Eagle, a locking blade is a must. More scouts are cut by swiss army non locking blades then any other knife. We tell our scouts they have to have a lock on it.

Age is not a reason for a person being asked not to attend a place like Philmont but physical ability is. To put it plainly, if an adult were to attend philmont and he is not able to complete the trek, the evacuation will really hold up the scouts and that would not be fair. An overnight camping trip is one thing, but any extended wilderness trip, be it hiking, canoeing, sailing or other, all that attend should meet a basic level of physical ability. There are plenty of adults over the age of 55 that are in great shape and if they can complete the trip then there is no reason they cant go. If this grandfather isnt up to the phyisical aspect of the trip then he should NOT go on it. He would just be hindering and not helping. When ever any troop is going on an extended high adventure trek there should be a training scheduale to evaluate the physical abilities of those looking to attend as well as getting in shape. For our troop going out to philmont it began last spring, with a lot of backpacking trips and early morning PTs. Any adults that cant's hack it on these weekend trips or PTs arent going to NM.

"Unless you are a paid professional with extensive training, and I do not know if any of you are, you are not qualified to pass judgment on the boy, the situation, or me." do you feel that you are passing judgement?

Why would they want to try to limit the aid for an eagle service project?