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  2. In this example, from a proper square necker , starting at 1:50 in video.
  3. Yesterday
  4. I seriously doubt if summer camps, high adventure or just any scouting are happening this summer. It's just my opinion but here's my reasoning. All of the models, if correct, are only talking about getting things under control. None of them are talking about eradicating the disease. Herd immunity doesn't kick in until something well past 50% of a population becomes immune. Right now, immunity means getting the virus. Assuming that 10 times the number of people have it than have been identified with a test, we're still only at 10x330k, or roughly 3 million out of the 320 million that live in the US. That's 1%. Getting to 50% (and it's probably much higher that's required) would mean 160 million people get the disease and something like 2 million die. Without a herd immunity we'll be right back where we are now as soon as everyone assumes its over and we can get back to the old normal. The old normal will not exist for at least a year. Note that no other countries have gotten their cases to zero and kept them there. The models assume we stay away from each other. The only way that changes by September is if we have a vaccine, we have a medical way to help the body deal with the virus or we have a system in place to identify everyone in an outbreak and test them very quickly (or some combination of these). Just a guess, but that last one would require the ability to do millions of tests a day across the country. It would also mean tracking everyone's movement, just as South Korea is currently doing. I can see something like that happening but not by September. I barely see anyone talking about what happens after we get things under control. The big question is how does everyone get back to enough "normal" such that they can live; jobs, going to school, buying food, the basic necessities of life. I don't think scouts is on that list. I'd rather see all of the little businesses in my town get up and running before scouting. This whole thing makes me think year pins, patch placement and rank advancement just don't matter anymore. Broke councils, inbred leaderships, bankruptcy - it's all beyond a perfect storm. That all said, there's an opportunity here. At it's core scouting is about helping young people grow, become responsible, caring and helpful. It's about using the outdoors as a fun place to learn those skills but what we really want is scouts using those skills wherever they are - in the woods or near home. If we could focus on that, and scouts started helping our communities, everything else would take care of itself. What I don't see is who is going to lead that.
  5. I'll add one more comment. Only 1 of our 50 scouts going to summer camp dropped out due to Covid-19 (the rest already paid). So, parents & scouts are more than willing to go if it is open. I think that could change if our area infection rate shoots up, but so far so good...
  6. I think its too early to know for sure. Unless you are willing to do a 18 month to 2 year mandatory lock down of the entire country (until a vaccine is available), some activities will reopen with Covid-19 infections still out there. I expect this may be a state by state call based upon density of the virus in their community. What we need is sufficient testing to really determine the density of the infected in each community and then appropriate guidelines based upon that density. It could definitely mean limiting camps to local scouts (with xx miles) to prevent spread between communities. It could mean facemasks and end of some activities (big group fire ceremonies, dining halls and even water front). We go to a patrol cooking camp and our troop has discussed use of biodegradable utensils (no personal KP), additional monitoring/instructions of KP, additional monitoring/instructions for hand washing, face masks, etc. The only real way out of this is a vaccine and there is no way the country will shut down fully until that is available (which in best case in large volumes would be 18 months to 2 years). So, we will need to live with this and find ways to limit risk. If summer camp is open, I'll be there with my Troop. We will work to minimize risk. If they close camp, I'm ok with that call. I just hope they can ramp up testing further to see where this is really spreading and take appropriate action. I tend to agree this summer may be too soon to have all of this in place … but one can hope.
  7. If we are given the "all clear" in time for summer camp (and HA), and if councils are in earnest, they could take a page from our local school district: One Saturday before school starts, several volunteer doctors and nurses assemble at a central location and give free sports physicals for all the youth in the school district. Many families avail themselves of this offer. It meets the requirement, it's good for the school year, and it's free. An enterprising council staff could set up something similar. Alas, it may not matter. I too have the impression there will be no activities this summer. I still believe that, if permitted, some camping could be done. Fewer people jammed in campsites, patrols camping farther away from the troop, campsite boundaries pushed way out from the norm. Emphasize patrol cooking and outdoor activities that encourage fresh air and small groups. Waive the requirement mandating adults supervise every patrol activity. Send the patrols on hikes by themselves. Allow them to cook in their campsite, with the SPL stopping by now and again to see how things are going. Trained and trusted, they can handle the responsibility and will have a better scouting experience.
  8. I read somewhere that the old med forms for BSA were valid for 3 years. I believe it would suffice for a typical one week resident camp. I don’t believe there are many serious underlying, undiagnosed diseases or conditions in the average teenager without any symptoms. If they have prior medical conditions or worries, then they should follow up with their primary care provider. The problem may be getting a physical in general, for camp or not. Either way it may be a lose lose situation.
  9. I've seen this idea floated before about waiving Part C to allow participation at camp. First, I'm not even sure how that would work on a liability basis from an insurance perspective. Second, it would seem ill advised from a public health perspective and that the opposite would be more ideal -- a more current physical. If there was ever a time to identify any underlying and previously undiagnosed conditions, or for a health care provider to provide one on one advice before heading to camp, it would be now. I understand the deep desire that we all have to get back to normal as quickly as possible but I don't think this is a good idea. Although I worry that wouldn't stop BSA from adopting it given the track record.
  10. I am very pessimistic at this time. Things that I thought would happen due to the lawsuits and bankruptcy on the local are happening. And COVID-19 is making it worse. We are on a conditional charter now due to membership loses and not meeting finance goals. our DFS and 2 DEs have been RIF'ed. Merging districts was mentioned in a letter, and friends in the know mentioned possibility of splitting the council amongst 4 neighboring councils. A variety of factors have affected membership: policy changes, loss of LDS, negative publicity regarding lawsuits and bankruptcy. FOS is down because of the above and the last, minute increases in registration. I know I reneged on my pledge because I had to use my pledge to pay for increase in dues. I am not pledging for this year, I am expecting another increase in fees. Hopefully someone will realize that we need the info prior to June so that units making budgets based upon the school year can plan accordingly. My district and council are dying. Regarding the comment that BSA will be more volunteer led, I hope so. But I won't hold my brief. I not only know of professionals who ignore and overrule volunteers, but also go after volunteers who disagree with the. I personally know 2 volunteers who were removed from Scouting because they discovered some irregularities on the professional level, and brought it to folks attention. Heck one SE gave a training session on selecting volunteers, and told us to only use "yes men" in stead of the best person for the job. One of the reasons my district is in the shape it is in is because the pros overule our decisions. Funny thing is, we never seem to see them around, nor are they in communication with us until after everything is planned and organized. It seems as if they think because they are paid, they know more about Scouting than the volunteers do. As far as summer camp is concerned, I do not think it will happen. Even if things open up, I think parents will be extremely cautious and not send the Scouts. Hopefully I will get a refund for the deposit already paid, but I doubt it. Hopefully I can write it off my taxes as a donation.
  11. @Ronmass I’m the health officer at a summer camp near me and council has not mentioned anything yet. It is too soon to tell since the claims about the virus change daily. I’m thinking councils will wait until May if they will decide to open or have a limited amount weeks. I would assume there will be additional screenings at check in with the health officer. Probably the generic questions (traveling, any symptoms, fever, etc) would be asked. I’m more so concerned how would everyone get updated ABC forms when doctors will be already packed. I’m hoping they allow the use of last years forms.
  12. Anyone notice that your neckerchief is just a backwards face mask?

  13. Yes, we just filed for this for our church and for a small business as well. I don't see camps or HA realistically operating this summer. Without a vaccine or effective therapeutics, I would not send a kid to camp even if they were open. The virus is mutating all the time and the more cases there are, the more mutations there are. We have seen an explosive increase in cases in the US and Europe. There is no guarantee it won't mutate into something that children are more susceptible to. The best way to avoid this is to keep them out of the clinical picture so that this very smart virus doesn't "learn" how to also target them. School in the fall with health measures and surveillance in place might be worth the risk. Optional camps or HA outings with poor hygiene this summer, no.
  14. Or council camps will become a vital part for rebuilding. Many people can't afford $1000.00 for a high adventure trip or national event. I can see the local camps being used by units in order to keep up the outdoor aspect of Scouting. I can see troops using these properties to conduct their own summer programs. I can see individual council's using volunteers exclusively for staffing camps with the help of the local rangers. And, I can see units being more autonomous and responsible for their own administration. I guess we'll see.
  15. At this point, the issues surrounding the bankruptcy have been overwhelmed by the cash crunch from the virus. Councils need the cash now and must absolutely apply for this lifeline grant. It can be used to pay camp staff. I can think of no justified reason why any council should not apply for this cash -- which is made available precisely to address liquidity problems caused by the business disruptions caused by the government-ordered shut-downs.
  16. Wow. That's great. My wife and I chatted about summer camp for our youngest son. We just see no way it's going to happen this year. We're hoping next year will happen. I'm glad our local scouting professionals can get financial help as all revenue will disappear.
  17. Councils qualify for $10 million COVID-19 loan/grants. I can confirm that councils qualify to apply for the $10 million federal loans designed to keep organizations in business -- the same program available to small businesses with fewer than 500 employees. Many councils are applying. As long as these are used to pay salaries, benefits, etc., they become grants and do not have to be paid back. The amount each council will get is determined on a calculation based on its 2019 payroll totals. This just might save the summer camp season from a cash standpoint -- as long as the local health circumstances allow for it.
  18. Prediction: New National Structure to be Announced. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that a new governance and operations structure above the council level will be announced sometime after the National Executive Board meets sometime in mid-May.
  19. The entire National Annual Meeting has been cancelled in every respect. This includes the National BSA Foundation fundraising event. I presume the National Executive Board and key national standing committees will find a way to meet -- virtually or otherwise.
  20. National Professional Staff Furloughed. I am very sorry to share that 240 in Irving and 700 from Supply Division have been furloughed. These are wonderful people who have served us for many years.
  21. Last week
  22. @Ronmass welcome to the forum. My thoughts on summer camps is that they are not likely to happen this summer. At least not in my area, at least not on time. Maybe in July or August. A couple things have to happen: The area isn't facing a COVID-19 outbreak, and the state has lifted it's stay at home order, and the CDC recommends people return to work/school. Campers from out of state or people who have recently traveled (two weeks- month) are not permitted to attend. Families have the financial ability to send a kid to camp. Council has the financial ability to pay for camp. Council has recruited and hired staff. There are so many variables at this point, it's hard to make a blanket statement. I think by the end of April most councils will have a better understanding of their local, state and regional situations and we'll start to see decisions made.
  23. Not to minimize this, but for scout aged youth, I'm far more worried about a non-vaccinated youth bringing measles. However its the issue for all the older scouters showing up for the event, and the youth bringing the virus back to their homes and communities. But yes, I don't know what summer camps for any program will look like for next year.
  24. In my humble opinion it looks very bleak for Summer camps this Summer. If there was a chance that we could get some sort of protection with a pill etc--all would be ok --but it does not look good for that at this time ..Who would take a chance sending a 12-year-old child to an overnight camp during these troubled times ? Like a friend just asked me ..."If you had a bag of 100 skittles and was told 2 of them were deadly poison, would you take a chance reaching in the bag ?? I am an instructor in the shooting sports program...It would be almost impossible to teach a scout to handle a firearm safely without touching the guns and being a lot closer than 6 feet....Lysol spray for every gun ? Masks and gloves for each person when it's 90 degrees out ? Buddy system for the waterfront with a 6 foot social distancing rule ?? Dining halls, "Colors" etc would be very problematic... Just too risky... Virtual meetings cannot take the place of Summer camp ..
  25. The virus hasn't hit my area too hard yet. I just scheduled a physical at a CVS minute clinic. I shredded my part C from last year... So I have to get one, otherwise if Camp does happen, I'm likely screwed.
  26. I don't agree that we should suspend or remove service requirements. It is time to either postpone doing service for safety reasons or adapt to other kinds of service. My scouts are making masks at home. There are the designs my wife put together that they use or others that are online with different materials. There is a lot of need for the masks, we can't keep up with the need currently, and it allows the scouts and families an outlet to feel like they can do something to help in this helpless time.
  27. I can see this being a problem. Most all of ours get done in May/June before July summer camp...maybe if we'd "extend the expiration date" on Part C's to 15 months for this summer (just require updated Part A & B).
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    • In this example, from a proper square necker , starting at 1:50 in video.  
    • I seriously doubt if summer camps, high adventure or just any scouting are happening this summer. It's just my opinion but here's my reasoning. All of the models, if correct, are only talking about getting things under control. None of them are talking about eradicating the disease. Herd immunity doesn't kick in until something well past 50% of a population becomes immune. Right now, immunity means getting the virus. Assuming that 10 times the number of people have it than have been identified with a test, we're still only at 10x330k, or roughly 3 million out of the 320 million that live in the US. That's 1%. Getting to 50% (and it's probably much higher that's required) would mean 160 million people get the disease and something like 2 million die. Without a herd immunity we'll be right back where we are now as soon as everyone assumes its over and we can get back to the old normal. The old normal will not exist for at least a year. Note that no other countries have gotten their cases to zero and kept them there. The models assume we stay away from each other. The only way that changes by September is if we have a vaccine, we have a medical way to help the body deal with the virus or we have a system in place to identify everyone in an outbreak and test them very quickly (or some combination of these). Just a guess, but that last one would require the ability to do millions of tests a day across the country. It would also mean tracking everyone's movement, just as South Korea is currently doing. I can see something like that happening but not by September. I barely see anyone talking about what happens after we get things under control. The big question is how does everyone get back to enough "normal" such that they can live; jobs, going to school, buying food, the basic necessities of life. I don't think scouts is on that list. I'd rather see all of the little businesses in my town get up and running before scouting. This whole thing makes me think year pins, patch placement and rank advancement just don't matter anymore. Broke councils, inbred leaderships, bankruptcy - it's all beyond a perfect storm. That all said, there's an opportunity here. At it's core scouting is about helping young people grow, become responsible, caring and helpful. It's about using the outdoors as a fun place to learn those skills but what we really want is scouts using those skills wherever they are - in the woods or near home. If we could focus on that, and scouts started helping our communities, everything else would take care of itself. What I don't see is who is going to lead that.
    • I'll add one more comment.  Only 1 of our 50 scouts going to summer camp dropped out due to Covid-19 (the rest already paid).  So, parents & scouts are more than willing to go if it is open.  I think that could change if our area infection rate shoots up, but so far so good...
    • I think its too early to know for sure.  Unless you are willing to do a 18 month to 2 year mandatory lock down of the entire country (until a vaccine is available), some activities will reopen with Covid-19 infections still out there.  I expect this may be a state by state call based upon density of the virus in their community.  What we need is sufficient testing to really determine the density of the infected in each community and then appropriate guidelines based upon that density.   It could definitely mean limiting camps to local scouts (with xx miles) to prevent spread between communities.  It could mean facemasks and end of some activities (big group fire ceremonies, dining halls and even water front).  We go to a patrol cooking camp and our troop has discussed use of biodegradable utensils (no personal KP),  additional monitoring/instructions of KP, additional monitoring/instructions for hand washing, face masks, etc.   The only real way out of this is a vaccine and there is no way the country will shut down fully until that is available (which in best case in large volumes would be 18 months to 2 years).  So, we will need to live with this and find ways to limit risk.  If summer camp is open, I'll be there with my Troop.  We will work to minimize risk.  If they close camp, I'm ok with that call.  I just hope they can ramp up testing further to see where this is really spreading and take appropriate action.  I tend to agree this summer may be too soon to have all of this in place … but one can hope.
    • If we are given the "all clear" in time for summer camp (and HA), and if councils are in earnest, they could take a page from our local school district: One Saturday before school starts, several volunteer doctors and nurses assemble at a central location and give free sports physicals for all the youth in the school district.  Many families avail themselves of this offer.  It meets the requirement, it's good for the school year, and it's free.  An enterprising council staff could set up something similar.  Alas, it may not matter. I too have the impression there will be no activities this summer.   I still believe that, if permitted, some camping could be done.  Fewer people jammed in campsites, patrols camping farther away from the troop, campsite boundaries pushed way out from the norm.  Emphasize patrol cooking and outdoor activities that encourage fresh air and small groups.   Waive the requirement mandating adults supervise every patrol activity.  Send the patrols on hikes by themselves.  Allow them to cook in their campsite, with the SPL stopping by now and again to see how things are going.  Trained and trusted, they can handle the responsibility and will have a better scouting experience.
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