Making the Hard Decision to Fold

[Eagle94-A1]

Tough night last night.  The decision to fold the troop was made last night. We been trying to recruit on our own because council is not helping, despite repeated requests. With only 4 Scouts, three of whom are in band, and one is just staying in until they get Eagle and really has no interest in camping but has no choice as he still needs Camping MB, it is now impossible to have an active outdoor program. Both the de facto CC and I realized this last nite when we tried to organize dates for November, December, and January. October was already out of play. 

We have not told anyone yet. I do not want to fold the troop just yet, as there are some 'housekeeping" things I want done. Finding troops for them is first and foremost, but  will be challenging. All four have burnt bridges with at least one troop in the area. And another troop is in the same situation we are in: no Cub Scout feeder pack. They got an infusion of 2-3 Scouts when another troop folded this year, but otherwise are in the boat with no prospects for new Scouts after this year. Even if we merge with them, that only delays the inevitable.

Also we are going to pay registration fees, but summer camp may be more challenging. We want to leave enough money with the CO to restart the church at a later date, if possible. And summer camp prices are skyrocketing.

Sorry for the rambling, but it has been tough  for me to get e grip on this decision.

 

[Tron]

I would recommend compartmentalizing this decision. When I am allowed to see numbers about units just about every council is in the same situation; an equal or greater number of troops to packs. The math is that in general you need at least 1 pack to keep a troop alive, you need 2 packs per troop in a district for the troops to thrive. 

The sad reality is that scouting in America is a pyramid scheme and right now we have too many troops. Some like to pitch it as we have not enough packs; however, the reality of demographics and social interest a higher number of packs have folded over the years compared to troops; so we just have too many troops. 

To your issue about council; we have too many councils, probably, easily, 100 too many councils. In general we have an infrastructure and organizational structure that never modernized with market conditions and technological advancements. Too many council administrators are fighting the future and just holding on for retirement. 

[Eagle94-A1]

One reason why there are more troops is that it is not as dependent on adults like Cubs. In all my years as both a volunteer and professional, being a CS DL was the hardest. Another reason is CS used to be 5 years, and now 6. Scouts is 7-8 depending when they join..

[mrjohns2]

6 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

In all my years as both a volunteer and professional, being a CS DL was the hardest.

Another hard job is the Pack CC. It is very hard being a DL, but having 2 or 3 dens without DLs? Not harder, just impossible? Finding, registering, and getting those DLs up to speed, so they can DO the hardest job, is a hard task.

[fred8033]

21 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One reason why there are more troops is that it is not as dependent on adults like Cubs. In all my years as both a volunteer and professional, being a CS DL was the hardest. Another reason is CS used to be 5 years, and now 6. Scouts is 7-8 depending when they join..

Clarification ... IMHO ... this is part of the death knell of scouting. ....   Cub Scouting age range has been expanding and changing over the years.  Started as 9-11.  Then 8-10 ... Started as three years only.   AND ... a much more simple program ...  The age range continued to grow and expand starting in the mid 1980s.  We are killing the older scout program where the big character growth happens with independence, responsibility and adventure.   Scouting is propping up membership numbers with younger and younger youth where scouting just doesn't shine and the youth are just too young.  The result is a poor impression of scouting and an ineffective program. 

Cub scouts should start in 3rd grade when kids begin to develop friendships independent of activities and independent of parents.

[fred8033]

On 10/1/2025 at 10:41 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Tough night last night.  The decision to fold the troop was made last night.  

It happens.  Demographics change affecting where kids go.  Sometimes you put in all the effort and it still does not work out.

IMHO, focus most on giving the remaining scouts the best possible experience possible.  Maybe a few last big adventures where they can grow and have good adventures.  Maybe they will find a new troop, but that's up to them mostly.  IMHO, focus on a great experience.

[CharlieZ]

"Council is not helping, despite repeated requests..."

As a retired Field Director, this brings up questions in my mind - not to cast doubt or blame, but to explore what's been asked, by whom and to whom - and then to consider if there are other avenues that can be taken. For instance, when you say "Council" do you mean within the volunteer ranks or on the professional side? Also, I'd want to consider the timing and nature of the requests - as well as the constraints that are on the council/district in terms of volunteer strength and resources.  I'd also be talking to the Chartered Org before making any final decisions. 

No easy answers, but always possibilities! I'm glad you at least consider the possibility of the troop restarting down the road, but maybe there's a way to avoid a cold restart.

[Eagle94-A1]

1. Welcome. I know there are good professionals out there, when I was a young Scouter, I worked for some who led me to become one when I got out of college. And being on here is a sign you may have been a good one IMHO. 

2.

18 hours ago, CharlieZ said:

For instance, when you say "Council" do you mean within the volunteer ranks or on the professional side? 

Professionals.  Treatment of volunteers by pros in the past, i.e. being ignored, overruled, lied to, yelled at, cursed out at, or being placed int he IVF for questioning council finances/insurance, has made many folks not want to volunteer at the district or council levels. So not many volunteers are around.

I do not have issues with volunteers, as few as there are now, because  I was heavily involved on the district and council levels prior to joining my current troop, and focusing on its survival for the past 7 years. I know the limitations and issues they face, especially in this council.

18 hours ago, CharlieZ said:

 Also, I'd want to consider the timing and nature of the requests - as well as the constraints that are on the council/district in terms of volunteer strength and resources.  

I know all about the 5 P's, and backdating. Requests for help have been made multiple times in timely manners. The only "rush" times is when we get new DEs, and we talk to them about the needs when they first come aboard. And yes we know it is sometimes to late in that situation. But the same issue over  and over? I know fundraising is important, but  when the council has an abusive reputation because they curse out their district chair, who happens to be a local chamber officer, word gets around and donations flounder. When volunteers see you focused on one aspect of your job, Money, ignoring the Membership part, and abusing your Manpower as stated above, further donations flounder.

18 hours ago, CharlieZ said:

I'd also be talking to the Chartered Org before making any final decisions. 

COR is aware of the situation and understands. The troop was close to folding last year when 3 Scouts were not planning to re-register due to costs or losing friends. Local insurance benefit, and a Scout transferring into the troop saved the troop. And when my family joined the troop they were on the verge of folding for the same reasons. 

18 hours ago, CharlieZ said:

I'm glad you at least consider the possibility of the troop restarting down the road, but maybe there's a way to avoid a cold restart.

The troop is one of the oldest in the council, actually predating it. There is a lot of history in the Scout room There have been challenges in the past, I just hope this is one of them.  But my loyalty is to my Scouts. I need to think what is best for them. And joining a larger troop that has resources and a feeder pack is in their best interest.

[Eagle94-A1]

Alright, I have read in multiple places that while the CO owns the gear, the unit's money goes to council. Does anyone have documentation on that?

Plan with the funds we currently have is to pay for registrations and at least 50% of their summer camp for our guys . But we want to leave some money in the account for if the troop gets restarted, they have seed money. However if council is going to get the money, we will spend it all. Pay as much as possible for summer camp, have an awesome day trip,  have a blow out Christmas party, etc.

EDITED:  I found the relevant documentation. Since we do not know how long it will take to restart the troop, if it ever gets restarted, I will suggest going with the worse case presented: completed dissolution with no intention of restarting. That way money can go for the purpose it was intended, providing opportunities for the Scouts, and equipment can be distributed, or completely disposed of ( we have a lot of old donated gear that we have not even looked at because newer is available). 

Edited yesterday at 02:14 PM by Eagle94-A1

[InquisitiveScouter]

41 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Alright, I have read in multiple places that while the CO owns the gear, the unit's money goes to council. Does anyone have documentation on that?

Plan with the funds we currently have is to pay for registrations and at least 50% of their summer camp for our guys . But we want to leave some money in the account for if the troop gets restarted, they have seed money. However if council is going to get the money, we will spend it all. Pay as much as possible for summer camp, have an awesome day trip,  have a blow out Christmas party, etc.

Bottom Line:  CO owns the money, too... not council.

Here is the last finance guidance I have from BSA legal on disposition of funds upon dissolution of a unit.  I have not searched for an update on this.  Please review.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units_May_2023.pdf

Also, you find nothing of the sort in the current Charter Agreement form:

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/524-95625-Annual-Charter-Agreement.pdf

Now, that will not stop council from asking for the money.  We had a Crew fold here a few years ago...  the unit returned excess monies to CO, and then CO asked the council what to do with it.  Council said, of course, to give it to them. 

However, there was a big problem... some unit members had already paid dues and membership fees for the next charter year.  The decision to fold was made after some had already paid.  When the families found out, they, rightfully, asked for their money back, as they had paid for next year's program.  They got nothing.  Due to this incident, a few families left Scouting for good.

I fault the unit leadership, the CO, and council for the situation.  The unit committee did not uphold their end of the bargain:   "The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations."  I would argue that the return of dues for the future year was a "unit obligation."

[Armymutt]

When we dissolved the Pack, the funds were dispersed to the units the Scouts moved to.  If that unit did not establish a fund for the Scout, the funds were retained by the committee and the Pack paid dues to the new unit for the Scout until those funds ran out.  Imperfect system, but the most fair thing we could come up with.  The CO retained the equipment.  Ok, realistically, we abandoned the equipment in the CO's big shed.  There's a troop there.  They can have the sleeping bags, sleep mats, and tent.  Can't give away a PWD track around here, so it's there if someone restarts the pack.  Our CO wasn't really involved with us and treated us little different than an outside organization using their facilities.  There was no way they were getting any funds, most of which were dues paid by parents.

[fred8033]

@Armymutt had a good solution.  When we shut down a unit, we gave our equipment to a newer unit that was just starting.  It was the best use.  

[Eagle94-A1]

On 10/9/2025 at 2:01 PM, Armymutt said:

...If that unit did not establish a fund for the Scout, the funds were retained by the committee and the Pack paid dues to the new unit for the Scout until those funds ran out.  Imperfect system, but the most fair thing we could come up with.  ... Our CO wasn't really involved with us and treated us little different than an outside organization using their facilities. 

We were fortunate for a long time.  CO was involved with us, but it helped that the pastor is an Eagle and his son was in the troop. However when he left, the de facto interim pastor was not a fan of Boy Scouts. Things we had been able to do for decades were no longer allowed. When one of my sons had their Eagle Court of Honor, which was planned  over 3 months in advance per her instructions, at the last minute she asked if we could postpone or move it because the church wanted to use the  reserved room. When I suggested using a smaller room at the church that would accommodate us, she got very defensive. She went on and on about how we had to clean up after ourselves, not make in messes in the kitchen, etc etc. And when the pack that was folding went to her to see if they could move there and restart the church's pack, her attitude and demeanor threw the leadership off and they wnet elsewhere. With the new pastor, things have gotten back to normal.

So with the 100+ year history with the CO, we would not have a problem with them keeping the money. However, with everything the council has done, and not done, we don't want them to get a dime more than what they are charging.

 

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

When we shut down a unit, we gave our equipment to a newer unit that was just starting.  It was the best use.  

 

Finding a new unit in our area is the challenge. Officially  the last new unit is 2-3 years old, but in reality it resulted from the folding of one pack and moving to a new CO. Otherwise the last new troop was the girls troop founded in 2019. Even before their creation, units were dying. Our problems started before COVID.