Is the real patrol method dead?

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

This is sort of 3 now for high adventure now that high adventure requires 3 wilderness first aid and CPR qualified participants. 

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

[DuctTape]

Adults meddling with who is in which patrol rarely works out. I'd suggest giving the authority back to the scouts to create their patrols. SM conferences with SPL and other (youth) leaders consistently to help them make good decisions. 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

[Armymutt]

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Adults meddling with who is in which patrol rarely works out. I'd suggest giving the authority back to the scouts to create their patrols. SM conferences with SPL and other (youth) leaders consistently to help them make good decisions. 

I agree, to an extent.  I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three.  The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols.  Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with.  The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

[InquisitiveScouter]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

[DuctTape]

59 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I agree, to an extent.  I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three.  The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols.  Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with.  The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

My 1968 SM handbook also says the same as your 1942. However, I did say the SM should be counseling the boys to help them make decisions. There is also nothing wrong with parameters of the patrol size as per the handbook to mitigate the unlikely result you posited. Also by giving them the authority it begins the process of them making the troop decisions, also when something goes wrong within a patrol they cannot look to you as the culprit. Thus I still suggest having them make the patrols with your guidance.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

He said next year, but if the word has not happened yet, it may be 2027 before going into effect since many crews are already set.

[MikeS72]

11 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Also are not supposed to be tenting youth together that are more than two years apart in age. For mixed age patrols, that just requires a little extra vigilance on how the patrol decides on tentmates, which then means adults having to be hovering over their shoulders for something that years ago we just left them to it. 

Other than summer camp (where we are limited to the number of tents the camp rations to us (5 tents for 5 Scouts & 3 adults this year) my Troop chooses to tent single.  When we backpack either everyone either has their own backpacking tent or we will loan them a lightweight tent.

[MikeS72]

8 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter]

59 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf 538.1 kB · 0 downloads

Three adults on "Treks" at Philmont:  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/

"Each Philmont expedition or group must have at least three BSA registered adult advisers for Scout groups. Three advisers must be at least 21 years of age. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. Each crew is required to have a majority of youth participants, and the maximum number of adults (over 21) is four per crew. Participants 18 through 20 years of age may be counted as youth or adult crew members. "

But only two on "Crews":  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/crewrequirements/

Would someone please elaborate on the difference??

Also, same page, says WFA/CPR can bet met by youth: "Philmont requires that each crew have three participants who have completed Wilderness First Aid and three participants with CPR training. Current certification cards must be uploaded int the Gateway to verify this requirement. With three Wilderness First Aiders and three CPR trained members on the trek, the crew will be better able to handle emergencies. This requirement can be met by youth and/or adult participants."

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

22 hours ago, Armymutt said:

 The acting SM asked me if we should bring a bunch of first aid supplies out to the campout for the Scouts to use to assemble kits.  To me, that's not the Scouts assembling a first aid kit.  That's the Scouts selecting materials from those provided by the adults.  I want to encourage them to actually open the handbook, read through it, think about what cases they might encounter, make a list, and then procure the items.  

I agree with you completely. If it helps, you can truthfully say that Arrows of Light do what what the SM suggested.

I asked my AOLs to complete assembling a first-aid kit as homework for this reason, but the suggested activity from the program for that requirement is to do what the SM suggested. Presumably you should do more for Tenderfoot than AOL.

[Tron]

22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

To quote the grandfather in The Princess Bride, "Wait, just wait."

I was informed that the number of adults will soon be 4. Apparently the number of adults not qualifying at check in, or needing evac on the trek is over 1/3. One of my Scouters plans on staffing next year, and that is what he was told.

I heard a generic phrase along this line that a large number of adults can't pass the physical and that a large number of "trail guides" have been getting used to keep contingents on the trail down at Philmont. 

I think the solution to this problem is if you show up and fail the physical you get sent home. Right now if you fail the physical my understanding is that they put your butt up in a cabin somewhere and you chill for a week while your scouts go beat the trail. 

[Tron]

21 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I'm still trying to figure that one out.  I think it started out in the pre-89 sense.  One of the adults back then is my age and an Eagle of the old school variety.  The troop formed because the founder's son wanted to quit due to meetings accomplishing the same thing an email could.  They started off strong.  Then COVID hit and a massive age gap developed.  The leader with a Scouting background moved on to Sea Scouts.  The older Scouts felt like they were babysitting - I think they weren't being given an incentive to actually develop their patrols into independent elements.  To keep them happy, someone decided to put the older kids into a patrol and lopped off the experience from the other patrols.  So now, it's teen hang out time for some and complete lack of forward momentum for the bulk of the troop unless an adult starts nudging.  My son crossed over in December, but I've been associating with the boys in this troop in the OA and as Cub Scout Day Camp volunteers for several years.  I've kept my distance until we were actually part of the unit.  I'm due to finally move home permanently in two weeks - retiring from the Army - so I'll be able to be more involved.  Since December, I've been limited to weekend activities, summer camp, and the occasional weekly meeting.  We're slowly developing a cadre of ASMs who are physically present.  Right now, only three of us wear a uniform all of the time.  Getting the adults in line is another struggle for another time.

The adults are the danger, if you push too hard, they will all turn on you. 

[Tron]

On 8/21/2025 at 9:04 AM, HashTagScouts said:

Also are not supposed to be tenting youth together that are more than two years apart in age. For mixed age patrols, that just requires a little extra vigilance on how the patrol decides on tentmates, which then means adults having to be hovering over their shoulders for something that years ago we just left them to it. 

The new rule is also buddies should be no more than 3 years apart in age which also complicates mixed age patrols. 

[Armymutt]

I'm not worried about that.  The acting SM and I are on the same word in the sentence, let alone the same page.  We are also the only two adults on the program side who are consistently involved.