Is the real patrol method dead?

[InquisitiveScouter]

2 hours ago, Tron said:

This is sort of 3 now for high adventure now that high adventure requires 3 wilderness first aid and CPR qualified participants. 

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

[DuctTape]

Adults meddling with who is in which patrol rarely works out. I'd suggest giving the authority back to the scouts to create their patrols. SM conferences with SPL and other (youth) leaders consistently to help them make good decisions. 

[Eagle94-A1]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

[Armymutt]

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Adults meddling with who is in which patrol rarely works out. I'd suggest giving the authority back to the scouts to create their patrols. SM conferences with SPL and other (youth) leaders consistently to help them make good decisions. 

I agree, to an extent.  I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three.  The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols.  Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with.  The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

[InquisitiveScouter]

22 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My source said no. All 4 adults must have WFA when it goes into effect.

 

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

[DuctTape]

59 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I agree, to an extent.  I don't think it's acceptable to have ten patrols of two Scouts or seven patrols of three.  The 1942 Handbook for Scoutmasters has a good guide for re-establishing patrols.  Essentially, the boys vote by secret ballot on who they would want to be in a patrol with.  The SM takes the results and creates the patrols.

My 1968 SM handbook also says the same as your 1942. However, I did say the SM should be counseling the boys to help them make decisions. There is also nothing wrong with parameters of the patrol size as per the handbook to mitigate the unlikely result you posited. Also by giving them the authority it begins the process of them making the troop decisions, also when something goes wrong within a patrol they cannot look to you as the culprit. Thus I still suggest having them make the patrols with your guidance.

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Your source have any intel on when this might happen?  We have a Philmont contingent next summer, and will need to forecast, if impacted.

He said next year, but if the word has not happened yet, it may be 2027 before going into effect since many crews are already set.

[MikeS72]

11 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Also are not supposed to be tenting youth together that are more than two years apart in age. For mixed age patrols, that just requires a little extra vigilance on how the patrol decides on tentmates, which then means adults having to be hovering over their shoulders for something that years ago we just left them to it. 

Other than summer camp (where we are limited to the number of tents the camp rations to us (5 tents for 5 Scouts & 3 adults this year) my Troop chooses to tent single.  When we backpack either everyone either has their own backpacking tent or we will loan them a lightweight tent.

[MikeS72]

8 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Trained youth can meet the quota, no?? 

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf

[InquisitiveScouter]

59 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Just a quick glance through the 2025 edition of the NCAP Standards book and I found this, which does not specify whether it be an adult or youth member of a trek.

I also found the following link which shows the 2025 requirements for each HA base:  BSA - Wilderness First Aid (BSA-WFA) • EMS Squared  -  Philmont is any 2 adult or youth; Sea Base is at least one adult; Northern Tier is at least one adult; Summit states 1 person adult or youth.

PA-218.pdf 538.1 kB · 0 downloads

Three adults on "Treks" at Philmont:  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/

"Each Philmont expedition or group must have at least three BSA registered adult advisers for Scout groups. Three advisers must be at least 21 years of age. There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. Each crew is required to have a majority of youth participants, and the maximum number of adults (over 21) is four per crew. Participants 18 through 20 years of age may be counted as youth or adult crew members. "

But only two on "Crews":  https://www.philmontscoutranch.org/treks/trekrequirements/crewrequirements/

Would someone please elaborate on the difference??

Also, same page, says WFA/CPR can bet met by youth: "Philmont requires that each crew have three participants who have completed Wilderness First Aid and three participants with CPR training. Current certification cards must be uploaded int the Gateway to verify this requirement. With three Wilderness First Aiders and three CPR trained members on the trek, the crew will be better able to handle emergencies. This requirement can be met by youth and/or adult participants."