RememberSchiff 3712 Posted May 10 Share Posted May 10 (edited) Of course, a name change on 9/1/24. Effective September 1, 2024, Scouting’s Shooting Sports programs within all programs including Cub Scouting, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouting will be referred to as Range and Target Activities. No non-commercial club ranges - nationally authorized camp property’s range(s) or at a commercial firearm range only. Venture sporting programs have taken a hit.. excerpt [9/1/2024 Shooting Sports Program Updates Effective September 1, 2024, Scouting’s Shooting Sports programs within all programs including Cub Scouting, Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouting will be referred to as Range and Target Activities. Note: As a reminder, the updated Cub Scout program effective June 1, 2024 includes elective adventures versus awards for Cub Scouts. These elective adventures can still only be offered at an accredited camp program (day camp, short-term camp, long-term camp) or a council organized one day event. For information on delivering these new elective adventures, please visit the shooting sports website. In addition, effective September 1, 2024, the following changes will affect the range and target activities within Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouting. All other current Scouting range and target activities policies as indicated in the National Shooting Sports Manual remain unchanged and must be followed. These changes will be reflected in the National Shooting Sports Manual on September 1, 2024 and will be updated periodically. Additional information regarding these changes can be found on the Shooting Sports FAQ website. Firearm programs may only take place on a nationally authorized camp property’s range(s) or at a commercial firearm range. This does not apply to district or council programs that utilize BB devices*, but applies to pellet rifles, airsoft (any type), rifles, pistols, shotguns, and muzzle loading rifles and shotguns. The use of personal firearms and personal ammunition is prohibited in all Scouting programs at nationally authorized camp properties. Personal firearms and personal ammunition may be used at a commercial firearm range, subject to restrictions regarding caliber, gauge, and action as described in the National Shooting Sports Manual and herein. At a minimum, all Scouts BSA troops, Venturing crews, and Sea Scout ships who provide unit-level sponsored/planned range and target activities must have at least one registered unit leader 21+ years of age take the Range Activity SAFEty online training. This trained adult leader must be present at the range. The training is recommended for all unit leaders in Scouts BSA, Venturing and Sea Scouting. Note this training does not replace the requirements for certified NRA firearms instructors and range safety officers. This training will be available beginning 9/1/2024. More at source: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss08/#a Edited May 10 by RememberSchiff 2 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1690 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) So many questions... So, is the muzzle loader limited to .22 caliber? Because that is really small for a muzzle loader... If we can use a .22 rimfire, why not a .22 caliber air rifle, because .22 caliber air rifles have lower muzzle velocity than the rimfires. Are we to assume the lever action rifles are limited to .22 caliber also? ummm... "air, CO2, or precharged pneumatic rifle"?? You are kind of mixing apples and oranges there... "air and CO2" are the gases used to propel the projectile. a PCP is a "method" for delivering the gas. Understood that you wish to limit the gases to air and CO2, because these large molecule gases limit the theoretical muzzle velocities you are gonna get. (1600 FPS is theoretical limit??) (LOL, a helium PCP would be wicked, but wicked expensive also) Are you trying to restrict the other "methods" or powerplants of supplying the air? - break barrels use a piston or spring, but are still "air" - gas ram rifles have a piston with N2 (usually), but that is contained. The piston pushes ambient air into the projectile. - PCP (pre-charged pneumatic) you mentioned, but these have the highest muzzle velocities of any powerplant - CO2 cartridge... I guess you mentioned?? - a variable pump (multi-pump) is still an "air" rifle I don't really understand what they are getting at... Can those programs that now have the NRA FIRST Steps Pistol do that at a commercial range?? Edited May 11 by RememberSchiff fixed small font Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3712 Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 (edited) 2022 National Shooting Sports Manual (298 pages) www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/Shooting-Sports IMHO, there should be separate manuals for Archery and Firearms. Regarding program name change "Range and Target Activities", will that include horseshoes, cornhole, beanbag toss, pumpkin chunking? Edited May 11 by RememberSchiff 1 Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3712 Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 38 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said: So many questions... Can those programs that now have the NRA FIRST Steps Pistol do that at a commercial range?? https://www.nrainstructors.org/search.aspx Note the Search at bottom For NRA FIRST Steps Pistol, BSA Only or Youth Only, All Available, I found no courses in 6 New England states. Course availability needs to be examined further. There are fewer NRA/BSA instructors and some courses have a limited demand. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 1027 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 Probably trace this directly to Hawaii I think. No changes noted for archery. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3712 Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 (edited) 6 hours ago, skeptic said: Probably trace this directly to Hawaii I think. No changes noted for archery. Agreed. I do not know the settlement of the wrongful death suit (August, 2023) against Aloha Council/BSA. Some random concerns I do not understand why "commercial ranges" are assumed safer than member-only sportsmen clubs (prohibited?) or more cooperative with an outside group program. This will likely end Council relationships with local, non-commercial sportsmen club which not only teach firearm safety and marksmanship but often host Klondike Derbies and scout fundraising events (turkey shoots, clay-breaking). The Marksman Experience at Bechtel will have to drop high-powered rifle after Sept 1. Long distance shooting, e.g. 1000 yards ends. .30-06 (center-fire) shooting at Philmont will end. Will Philmont Sportsman Adventure end? Unit shooting teams? Some members buy and use their own rifles for competitions. Back in the day, here he goes again, I bought and used my own rifle to earn Marksmanship Merit Badge. I still shoot my old Mossberg 340. I found no new rules regarding the secure (vault) storage of firearms and ammunition at camps or off-site. IMHO, hunter education and firearm instruction will be a safe and fun family activity outside of Scouting. My $0.02, Edited May 11 by RememberSchiff 2 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1690 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said: I do not understand why "commercial ranges" are assumed safer than member-only sportsmen clubs (prohibited?) or more cooperative with an outside group program. They aren't safer... but they have insurance coverage 😜 It's all about the money, brother... 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said: This will likely end Council relationships with local, non-commercial sportsmen club which not only teach firearm safety and marksmanship but often host Klondike Derbies and scout fundraising events (turkey shoots, clay-breaking). Yes... our local fish and game clubs are some of the strongest supporters of our Range and Target Activities (RTA). And they adhere to all range operation restrictions of the BSA. Do those all go away? Seems like it from this pronouncement. Bet the fundraisers will still go... they'll just be adult only. It's all about the money, brother... 1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said: The Marksman Experience at Bechtel will have to drop high-powered rifle after Sept 1. Long distance shooting, e.g. 1000 yards ends. .30-06 (center-fire) shooting at Philmont will end. Will Philmont Sportsman Adventure end? Dollars to doughnuts the HABs get exempted from this. It's all about the money, brother... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
InquisitiveScouter 1690 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 8 hours ago, skeptic said: Probably trace this directly to Hawaii I think. No changes noted for archery. And the Hawaii tragedy was on a council property... https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/06/17/boy-scouts-admit-30-shooting-investigations-near-misses-prior-big-island-scouts-death/ Link to post Share on other sites
RememberSchiff 3712 Posted May 11 Author Share Posted May 11 (edited) 6 hours ago, RememberSchiff said: I found no new rules regarding the secure (vault) storage of firearms and ammunition at camps or off-site. My $0.02, May 11, 2024, Mississippi Valley Council : ADAMS COUNTY, Ill. - An ammunition shed at Saukenauk Scout Reservation’s shotgun range caught fire Thursday, destroying $8,000 of ammo. Mississippi Valley Council Scout Executive Ricci Dula said the shed, constructed as a Wood Badge project, was gutted leaving debris on the range. Only leaders and the reservation’s ranger were onsite at the time. “We’re still determining the cause of the fire,” Dula said. “Nobody was harmed or at any risk of being harmed. The Mendon Fire Department did an exemplary job; the fire could have been considerably worse. It was about 25 feet away from a propane tank and another structure.” (One report said the cause was burning trash. ) The fire also wiped out Camp Saukenauk’s supply of guns, some of which were used during the Sporting Clays for Scouts event on Wednesday... More at sources including video and photos: https://www.whig.com/news/fire-destroys-scout-reservation-s-ammo-shed/article_66b960ba-0f1f-11ef-a825-0f9c306f606e.html https://www.wgem.com/2024/05/11/camp-saukenauk-ammunition-building-destroyed-fire/ Edited May 11 by RememberSchiff 1 Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 1027 Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 In the first three decades of our troop it was an NRA club as well. The SM owned a ranch and it had an arroyo. He built a range in the arroyo where the scouts trained. We still have remnants of that in historical items, including an interesting journal of names and scores, along with ammunition used. Sam also ran the local camp range for years, and then someone else from the troop took it over. During WWII, all the members that went in the service were marksmen or experts. Below is an interesting target that apparently was used during the War years. I have no idea where it came from, other than it was in a file. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 1027 Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 Bruce Russell; a prize winning political cartoonist of the WWII era. So, likely copied from a newspaper of the time. Link to post Share on other sites
swilliams 158 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 On the name change... because removing the word 'shooting' makes it much safer. (Yes, that's sarcasm.) 'Range and Target Activities' sounds much less troublesome, if you're the type to be troubled by shooting, but if that's what they were after I think it's a mistake. It's not only okay to let kids know something is dangerous, but going into it with that in mind helps reinforce the seriousness of handling not only firearms, but any instrument that sends a deadly object flying at great speeds. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mrjohns2 593 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 I thought range and target sports better includes archery. I don’t see archery as a shooting sport. Link to post Share on other sites
skeptic 1027 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said: I thought range and target sports better includes archery. I don’t see archery as a shooting sport. There are a lot of possible "shooting" sports, some not so sporty, some just humor. Shooting marbles, shooting pool, shooting baskets, and maybe even shooting mouths. They all still have rules of sorts, though too often ignored in the broader world. I suppose I just shot myself in the foot, as I am going too far afield. 😇 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tron 97 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 After the whole Hawaii thing how did we not see something happening? I don't think this is that big of a deal. Sure name change, but, we still have shooting sports. We're a very broad topic youth organization, not a shooting sports organization. The reduction in options is not that big of a deal, if a scout really likes shooting, and wants to get into different styles, different calibers, super serious with reloading etc ... why can't they go shoot clays on Tuesday night at their gun club, and roll into their troop meetings on Wednesday at the local church? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
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