The future of the BSA

[NDW5332 45]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:23 AM, 1980Scouter said:

Put scout offices and shops on camp properties and sell the council offices. Reduced overhead.

Our council's office and shop used to be located at our camp, which was a good 2 hour+ drive during rush hour.  Thankfully they opened a new office and shop much closer and centrally located to the units, so when I have to drop off paperwork or pick things up for our COH, I only have to drive 35 minutes.

[mrjohns2 582]

1 hour ago, DannyG said:

Maybe there is a generational difference.  When I was a kid, parents just dropped their kids off at Cub scout meetings and left. I suppose they had hoped a few adults would stick around as volunteers. Today's parents want a program they can enjoy together as a family.

Some / most in our area want a drop off, not a “let’s get involved”. 

[DannyG 69]

13 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Some / most in our area want a drop off, not a “let’s get involved”. 

Ok. Then I admit it's a regional difference. 

My Cub Scout Pack is a family pack that attracts entire families. That means there's a gaggle of cub scouts, parents, and siblings around at our meetings and events. The adults don't openly want to volunteer either. You have to ask. 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

4 hours ago, DannyG said:

My Cub Scout Pack is a family pack that attracts entire families. That means there's a gaggle of cub scouts, parents, and siblings around at our meetings and events.

That's us, too. We also have grandparents. Adults can outnumber scouts sometimes.

Probably related is that most (but not all) adults were scouts themselves. All grandparents that have come have at least one person in the couple who was a scout as a child. Everyone wants to share scouting with their children and grandchildren.

[Ojoman 157]

5 hours ago, DannyG said:

Ok. Then I admit it's a regional difference. 

My Cub Scout Pack is a family pack that attracts entire families. That means there's a gaggle of cub scouts, parents, and siblings around at our meetings and events. The adults don't openly want to volunteer either. You have to ask. 

35 years ago, nor really so long ago... we rebuilt a pack that had limped along with a dozen or so kids. We started with half a dozen families but we set the bar high. We built a GREAT program and had the expectation that the parents JOINED with their kids. We had family involved events, field trips and activities. We included the sisters in many things back before they could be members. Today with blended program it is easier to do. Eventually it was apparent to families that joined that parents were part of the pack. The family that plays together in Cubbing stays together in Cubbing. 

 

[Maheengun136 2]

In my humble opinion, the BSA is too administration and "change" focused.  It needs to return to its roots, getting Scouts in the outdoors, and investing in quality programs, facilities, and volunteers.   BSA is too focused on becoming what it never was in order to please those who have long sought to destroy it.  What the BSA is.... chartered volunteer-run troops utilizing the outdoors to teach youth timeless American values about duty to God and Country.

[Ojoman 157]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:45 AM, vol_scouter said:

So there is a desire to grow Cub Scouts for the sake of Cub Scouts and to maintain a healthy Scouts BSA program. 

The plain truth today is that there is a lack of RETENTION in the Cub program. Many packs only cross a couple of AOL's to Scouts because they only have a couple. My kids were in about the time that Tigers came out. Tiger uniform was a T shirt with iron ons for things they accomplished. Those kids wanted to become Wolf Cubs and get that blue uniform with all the patches. Keeping the program exciting at each stage as well as growing and more challenging is a key. We actually GREW in the higher ages as friends/buddies heard what we were doing and asked to join or were recruited. The program is awesome but the unit leaders need to be trained and supported in getting it delivered. Parents need to be engaged! Scouting should not be a weak or lackluster program. 

[NDW5332 45]

1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

The plain truth today is that there is a lack of RETENTION in the Cub program. Many packs only cross a couple of AOL's to Scouts because they only have a couple.

When my son started as a Tiger, there were 3 dens of 6 - one with kids from one school, one with kids from another close school, and the 3rd was homeschooled and "floaters".  By the start of the Bear year, the three dens were down to 1.  So, what happened.  8 of the original 18 had left because families moved. 2 left because they were diagnosed with learning disabilities, went to new schools with special programs, and the parents did not want their sons to be left behind because they hadn't finished Wolf.  3 more left because of travel sports - their coaches gave them ultimatums sport or scouts.  That left a Bear den of 5. By the end of the Bear year,  1 more moved away, 1 left to join another pack in the area, because his dad was the UC and wanted to join an "accelerated program" that would combine Web 1 and AOL and Boy Scout requirements, so they could join a 'brother troop' as a Tenderfoot in less than a year (not sure if it was legal, particularly with the ages of the boys, but OK). 1 more left and followed that family.  So we started Web 1 with 2, my son plus 1 more. We added another Web 1 after a recruitment night.  At the end of the year, one of the kids that went to the "accelerated program" came back (not the UC's kid).  Picked up 2 more at the start of AOL in the recruiting night.  All 6 crossed over at the end of the year to two different troops. 2 have earned Eagle already, 1 is very close (only needs to dot some lower-case "J's" on the application, turn in the paperwork and schedule the BOR). 1 did end up dropping out of Scouts after 6 months. From what I have heard, the last 2 are still going strong and are working through their advancement...so where was I? I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

[fred8033 1593]

55 minutes ago, NDW5332 said:

When my son started as a Tiger, there were 3 dens of 6 - one with kids from one school, one with kids from another close school, and the 3rd was homeschooled and "floaters".  By the start of the Bear year, the three dens were down to 1.  So, what happened.  8 of the original 18 had left because families moved. 2 left because they were diagnosed with learning disabilities, went to new schools with special programs, and the parents did not want their sons to be left behind because they hadn't finished Wolf.  3 more left because of travel sports - their coaches gave them ultimatums sport or scouts.  That left a Bear den of 5. By the end of the Bear year,  1 more moved away, 1 left to join another pack in the area, because his dad was the UC and wanted to join an "accelerated program" that would combine Web 1 and AOL and Boy Scout requirements, so they could join a 'brother troop' as a Tenderfoot in less than a year (not sure if it was legal, particularly with the ages of the boys, but OK). 1 more left and followed that family.  So we started Web 1 with 2, my son plus 1 more. We added another Web 1 after a recruitment night.  At the end of the year, one of the kids that went to the "accelerated program" came back (not the UC's kid).  Picked up 2 more at the start of AOL in the recruiting night.  All 6 crossed over at the end of the year to two different troops. 2 have earned Eagle already, 1 is very close (only needs to dot some lower-case "J's" on the application, turn in the paperwork and schedule the BOR). 1 did end up dropping out of Scouts after 6 months. From what I have heard, the last 2 are still going strong and are working through their advancement...so where was I? I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

Sounds very normal and a good representation.

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

1 hour ago, NDW5332 said:

I think there are often a lot of external factors that affect retention and attrition and there isn't one magic silver bullet that will solve what ails a pack or troop.

I agree. 

Last week we ran into a formerly quite involved family who left our pack - not because they didn't like us and/or scouting, the now former scout just liked sports more and had to choose. They chose sports.

My scout, OTOH, had the same choice and chose scouts. So we're here and they're not, but that particular reason isn't the only reason anyone ever leaves - some have had family issues that sucked time away, some moved, some did this, some did that... and without some data gathering, it's really hard to say if there is a clear top one, two, or three reasons why families leave that we collectively should focus on.

Edited September 22, 2023 by AwakeEnergyScouter

[AwakeEnergyScouter 247]

6 hours ago, Maheengun136 said:

BSA is too focused on becoming what it never was in order to please those who have long sought to destroy it.  What the BSA is.... chartered volunteer-run troops utilizing the outdoors to teach youth timeless American values about duty to God and Country.

Don't forget King! 😉

The monarchy is timeless 😉

[Eagledad 2779]

Success comes from implementing a program that works toward a successful vision. The BSA lacks leadership that believes, much less understands the vision of developing moral and ethical decision makers.

I get it, I struggled convincing many parents that giving scouts the independence to learn from their decisions in an outdoors environment is a successful path for building citizens of character and leaders of integrity.

But, if organization leaders don’t believe it, how can the users believe in it.

Barry

[Tron 82]

Training is key; however, it doesn't matter how well trained a volunteer is if they don't want to run the actual program AND it's all about "their kids" and not providing a good program. All of the dying troops in my area have the same things in common: no relationship to a pack, cadre of key 3 leaders who need to rotate out, doing their own thing.  All of the dying packs in my area have the same things in common: only have a relationship with 1 troop, do not run year round programs, doing their own thing. 

 

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

30 minutes ago, Tron said:

Training is key; however, it doesn't matter how well trained a volunteer is if they don't want to run the actual program AND it's all about "their kids" and not providing a good program. All of the dying troops in my area have the same things in common: no relationship to a pack, cadre of key 3 leaders who need to rotate out, doing their own thing.  All of the dying packs in my area have the same things in common: only have a relationship with 1 troop, do not run year round programs, doing their own thing. 

 

@Tron, I have noticed this over many years of Scouting as well...

There is no attempt to "standardize" the program, or encourage/incentivize Troops to hold to those "standards."  So, you wind up with everyone doing their "version" of Scouting.  Most never pick up the book and read to try to find the purpose of what we are doing.  In most parent minds, the purpose is to make my kid an Eagle Scout so he/she can put in on a college/service academy application.

You most likely know this, but this "standardization" is the purpose of the Commissioner Corps, starting with Unit Commissioners.

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NCST-Unit-Commissioner-Job-Description.pdf

The last time we saw a Commissioner in our unit was when we invited them to present an award on behalf of the council.

During my 7+ years tenure as Scoutmaster, we had one unit contact (at our request) and never once saw a unit assessment. 

That said, I understand the program and policies, and during that time, our unit charter was always clean and on time, and we always reached Gold Level on Journey to Excellence (for which we submitted the report at recharter time).  (BTW, during the last year, we finally hit one of my personal goals for our unit: to reach a maximum score on the JTE.)  So, perhaps, since we were not a "problem unit", their attention was devoted elsewhere.  But, a phone call to our COR, CC, or SM saying, "Hey, just wanted to let you guys know you are doing a great job!" would have been a 2-minute phone call or email well spent.

---------------------------------------

Another mindset I have seen is from many adults being so defensive about their unit program.  They think they are right, and even if they aren't, well, it IS their program and they'll darn well run it they way they want to.

There is no mindset of "continuous process improvement" or asking simple questions like "What is the right way to do this?" or "What is a better way to do this?"

It's just, "I don't care about all that stuff.  Let's muddle through, get my kid's Eagle, and get the heck out..."

What can men do against such reckless hate? 😛

https://youtu.be/t6qQSll7InQ

 

[fred8033 1593]

3 hours ago, Tron said:

Training is key

It's very important, but even with the training I've seen ... people run the program they've learned from the previous unit leaders or they do what they want.   Training is very important but not a failure root cause.

 

3 hours ago, Tron said:

...  All of the dying troops in my area have the same things in common: no relationship to a pack  ...  All of the dying packs in my area have the same things in common: only have a relationship with 1 troop,

This is a fundamental issue in my view:  the broken connections between packs and troops. 

Directly related, "emphasizing" troop shopping is bad.  If the unit is not a good match, then switch.  Fine.   BUT!  It's bad to have individuals shopping around causing splits and breaks in continuity.  A few big units thrive.  Smaller and medium units hurt.  Worse, long term relationships get damaged as people move for various reasons.   ... In this day and age of driving around and shopping, people are used to going further and looking for the best deal.  IMHO, this is bad for scouting as it moves youth away from their immediate community.

My view is a single unit committee that oversees a program from youngest cubs to oldest scout / explorer is critical.  New parents see where what their scout could achieve.  Youth have older scouts to look up too.   Plus, experienced older scouts could help run some younger programs at times.

 

3 hours ago, Tron said:

..., do not run year round programs, doing their own thing. 

Yep.  Also bad.

Edited September 26, 2023 by fred8033