What does one need to do to avoid being proselytized to at district-level events?

[SSScout 1615]

15 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

It also sounds like adults aren't supposed to be running religious ceremonies at camporees in the first place, did I understand that correctly? It did sound funny that Scout's Own be done by not a current scout.

Might I ask, what is the point of a Scout's Own?

I apologize if I didn't make that clear....    A Scout's own, to my mind is just that.   It is not led by ordained ministry.

It should be done ""By The Scouts".    This is not to say particular faiths can't do what they do. But it should be labeled such:   Catholic, Muslim,  Jewish, etc.   

Ain't the web wunnerful?     http://usscouts.org/chaplain/scoutsown.asp 

Dropbox   "Scouts Own " IOLS discussion and example...  Please copy and use as you see fit.....

  https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wszubc4hnh2i9bj/ScoutsOwnDutytoGod.docx?dl=0&rlkey=a70403zksewfp1m8o1dscu0nv

[HashTagScouts 435]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Actually, if you search moral definition, most link it to religion.

But, to your point, if there is no source, then every SM has claim to moral definitions. Chaos. Units can teach whatever behavior they like and call it morality, and nobody could argue. The Oath and Law would have no foundation to stand on because behavior would depend on the emotional mood of the SM in that moment. 

The BSA points to one source, god.

So, where did the 10% come from?

Barry

Since 2014 Scouts UK allows atheists. The Scout Promise | Scouts

 

[SSScout 1615]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

Any bets on how long before @SSScout asks for a sub forum? 😀

Well bless yer little Scouty heart. 

Nay, laddy,  such as this always deserved it's own "Faith and Religion" (and ethics? shudder) forum.  

Oh, let's get back to Epicurus....

[SSScout 1615]

Okay, let's get specific then.  I will start with Lutherans, only because one of my favorite people is Garrison Keillor and he ALWAYS starts with Lutherans....

https://garrisonkeillor.substack.com/p/thanks-to-lutherans-i-skipped-ballet?

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 246]

8 minutes ago, SSScout said:

I apologize if I didn't make that clear....    A Scout's own, to my mind is just that.   It is not led by ordained ministry.

It's probably me. I never feel as foreign as in conversations about Christianity, all the Americans including the non-Christians all share a vocabulary and know so much about Christianity that you all seem like Bible scholars to me. I have met Jews that know more about Christianity than I do and I got top marks in religion class in school.

A scout's own what, for what purpose? Own expression of spirituality, traditional forms of practice? What is the scout's own ______ supposed to achieve? Are we building community, pointing to reverence for... The natural world? Some and/or all deities from miscellaneous places? The buddhadharma? Studying comparative religions? And what is the connection to scouting - learning about diversity? Practicing patience?

I looked at the resources you provided and couldn't quite guess beyond what I already knew, something to do with spirituality.

That format was helpful to see for my own understanding, though, thank you for sending that. Gives me a better understanding of what we're talking about.

[seattlecyclone 55]

22 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I hadn't considered this. I cannot fathom starting a business meeting with a prayer.

Unfortunately for my child perhaps, I don't have very much experience navigating these situations with grace myself. It isn't a needed skill in Sweden, and in the US I hadn't experienced any until I moved to the South, and my method for dealing with it is avoidance. It probably helps that I work with people from all over the Earth and so it is plainly never a good assumption that most people present are Christian. The few times when it's happened I am so taken by surprise that this is really happening that I feel like a deer in headlights. Once I can run away I do. But that obviously isn't handling it with grace.

Any tips?

Others addressed this already, but the basic tip that I would provide to a beginner is to just sit silently during the prayer and continue with the meeting as though nothing happened. For a one-off situation I'd recommend just leaving it at that. Choose your battles.

If it's a regular meeting that you'll be exposed to often, you can have a conversation with the leaders involved where you express your concern about the inclusivity of a Christian prayer being delivered to a group of mixed faith. This conversation could go one of two ways: the person might say "gosh you're right I didn't realize there were non-Christians in the room, we'll keep it secular so that everyone feels welcome," or they might say "my Lord Jesus Christ commands me to spread the Gospel wherever I can, the US Constitution grants me freedom of speech and religion, and I intend to keep using those freedoms to spread the Word." As a foreigner you might have trouble predicting in advance which way the conversation is likely to go, but with practice you might gain more foresight there.

Again, tactfulness and picking your battles are important here. As much as you or I might believe it's inappropriate to use Scouting as a vehicle to advance one religion in particular (single-religion units excepted, perhaps), others don't see it that way. Do you let the public prayers continue, or do you file a complaint and risk your relationships with your fellow Scouters? Neither option is without its downsides.

[sierracharliescouter 85]

8 hours ago, Eagledad said:

10%, wow, how do you know that?

The mission of the BSA is Developing ethical and moral decision makers. If the Declaration of Religious Principles is dropped, what is the common foundation of values for developing moral and ethical character?

As indicated by another poster, the 10% number is likely low. Keep in mind that Scouting has lost major religious partners recently, which will drive the representativeness of BSA more toward the average of the general population.

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/generation-z-future-of-faith/

A scout is reverent. Reverent: Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect. 

If you feel that only theists are capable of developing sound moral and ethical character, I'd suggest that you study more about other Scouting organization globally, as posted above. I'd also argue that we've all seen plenty of evidence that a theistic upbringing  is absolutely no guarantee of developing sound moral and ethical character.

[Eagledad 2777]

11 hours ago, sierracharliescouter said:

 

If you feel that only theists are capable of developing sound moral and ethical character, I'd suggest that you study more about other Scouting organization globally, as posted above. I'd also argue that we've all seen plenty of evidence that a theistic upbringing  is absolutely no guarantee of developing sound moral and ethical character.

You read way way too much into my post. My post was pragmatic and in no way suggested my opinion or experience. Also, don’t use international scouting to imply scouting in the BSA. It’s different.

Instead of trying to sway others with made up polls and guesses, it’s ok to participate in these discussions with your personal opinions. Makes the discussion more enjoyable and educational for everyone. A lot of us have A LOT of experience in these kinds of things in scouting and just might add something useful for most on the list. 

[SSScout 1615]

I need all the help I can get. 

 If someone wishes to invoke the blessing or help from their version of God (or lack thereof) , no problem.  A gift is a gift. I accept it in the spirit presented. 

 I have been present when God, Christ, Jehovah, Buddha, Vishnu, the Great Spaghetti Monster and "none of the above " (really!)  have been asked to positively affect the outcome of an event,  and found myself only slightly shagrinned when I had to think about who or what was being mentioned.  

I know where from I have been helped.  I can only witness to my own experience.  I can only react to what training , education and experience I have been thru.  Bible (pick a translation), Torah,  Book of Mormon,  read whatever  and pick and choose what to follow.  

I have been present, holding my dad's hand when he died, and felt "something" leave the room.  I have been present, in worship and knew  when something joined us in the room.  If I succeed at something,  it hasn't been only me.  Past events, prior family, friends and....  what? ... have led me to that success.  

I need all the help I can get. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by SSScout

[AwakeEnergyScouter 246]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

don’t use international scouting to imply scouting in the BSA. It’s different.

Why is American scouting different?

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

12 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Why is American scouting different?

BSA uses Charter organizations to support the program. They have a say in how the program works. Another reason is the heavy influence of the Young Men's Christian Association, aka YMCA, The Y, in the early years.

[DannyG 67]

18 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

A scout's own what, for what purpose? Own expression of spirituality, traditional forms of practice? What is the scout's own ______ supposed to achieve? Are we building community, pointing to reverence for... The natural world? Some and/or all deities from miscellaneous places? The buddhadharma? Studying comparative religions? And what is the connection to scouting - learning about diversity? Practicing patience?

It seems to me a Western-style religious practice to gather for worship, share stories, songs, and prayers. Scouters accustomed to this type of service may use the time to meditate or prayer. It is about being a part of community devoting time for god. I think it is part diversity -- by incorporating stories, songs, and prayers from different faiths. But to be truly honest, most of my scouts look bored during the Scouts' Own service, wondering when they can go back out in the woods and play! Practicing patience is certainly part of it too!

It is what you make of it. As an adult leader I would encourage scouts to attend Scouts Own, at least to see how others practice faith even if it doesn't fit their own beliefs. Or if they choose not to attend, to use the time for duty to God as they see fit. It will never be mandatory to attend the service.

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter 246]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

BSA uses Charter organizations to support the program. They have a say in how the program works. Another reason is the heavy influence of the Young Men's Christian Association, aka YMCA, The Y, in the early years.

That's true, the charter organization thing isn't done everywhere. I don't know what the influence of the YMCA was, but assuming in this context that it was an explicitly pro-Christian influence.

I'm not quite sure I understand how these differences make comparing BSA scouting to other aligned NSOs invalid or unhelpful, though. Would you be willing to explain?

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

IMHO, because BSA was once the largest, wealthiest NSO, they would do whatever they want. For example, Prior to August 1, 1989, BSA members had to earn the World Crest. Between that fact, and the charter concept, lots of rules in BSA are not elsewhere. For example, alcohol is perfectly acceptable in many NSOs, but not here. And that rule came from one of the largest CO partners at the time, the Mormon Church.

[AwakeEnergyScouter 246]

Are you saying that the BSA and most members thereof see themselves as their own, separate scouting-like movement that shouldn't align with any other scouting-like organization?