Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?

[Ojoman]

My understanding is that the National registration fee has been increasing as part of the settlement agreement. Local councils in years past were not permitted to add to the registration fees  but as councils lost donors and income due to the National controversies with LGBTQ as they went after our donors and then the costs of the bankruptcy councils were allowed modest additions for things like accident/liability surcharges. In more recent years those restrictions have been loosened and councils that do a good job raising funds have added little or no increases to the National fee while councils that don't do so well have tacked on higher fees. Our council is one of the not so good fund raisers and every youth and adult has to pay. Cubs and Scouts pay $80 to National and $80 to local while adults who volunteer time, gas and money have to pay $60 to National and $60 local. If a council lacks the talent or opportunity to meet costs they pass it along. Camps, staff, office facility, insurances and program expenses need to be covered. Popcorn and FOS isn't getting the job done. You can look up recent 990 forms for your council if you want to get a picture of where the money goes. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I'm putting together an email for families in my son's den that contains details on upcoming events hosted by our council. One such event is a "family scouting outing" at a local council camp. The cost is $45/person. So, hypothetically, a family of 4 would pay $180 to attend an event on a property owned by the council and staffed by volunteers. This does not even include meals.

$180! 😬

 

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know one event my council did for cubs would cost $30-$40/ person, but that included meals. I never went to that one.

The one I went to was $15/ person, with a max of $60/ family. I had a family of 5, so I appreciated the discount. Meals were not included, and we did unit or family cooking.

The last one they had, was the last event at the camp before closing. Since "family" was not defined, we had a lot of grandfathers attending and reminiscing about the camp.

 

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

My understanding is that the National registration fee has been increasing as part of the settlement agreement. Local councils in years past were not permitted to add to the registration fees  but as councils lost donors and income due to the National controversies with LGBTQ as they went after our donors and then the costs of the bankruptcy councils were allowed modest additions for things like accident/liability surcharges.

Correct. a large chunk of the national fees is going towards the lawsuit. And yes, folks did target donors. My understanding is that even with the updated policies, those donors are not contributing again which is why councils can add fees.

1 hour ago, Ojoman said:

In more recent years those restrictions have been loosened and councils that do a good job raising funds have added little or no increases to the National fee while councils that don't do so well have tacked on higher fees... If a council lacks the talent or opportunity to meet costs they pass it along. Camps, staff, office facility, insurances and program expenses need to be covered. Popcorn and FOS isn't getting the job done. You can look up recent 990 forms for your council if you want to get a picture of where the money goes.

Sadly my council is in the "lacks talent" category. Between professionals not helping units survive, i.e. recruiting; ignoring volunteers, especially your small business owners who are willing to pay for specific, needed things; and yelling and cursing out volunteers they disagree with, multiple incidents at all levels; FOS donations have plummeted. More importantly, you got extremely experienced, and knowledgeable volunteers who say "The heck with council, and quit. Funny thing is, if a Life Scout asks for donations for their Eagle Project, the small business owners who use to volunteer are the first ones to donate.

In my neck of the woods, people do not do popcorn because A. it is way overpriced and most folks locally cannot afford it and B. those units that have done it  have had some "issues" with council in which council takes a larger cut than they are suppose to. And I already covered FOS.

[BetterWithCheddar]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:46 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

 And yes, folks did target donors. My understanding is that even with the updated policies, those donors are not contributing again which is why councils can add fees.

Just curious - how were donors targeted?

Did lawyers threaten to lump them into the lawsuit or was their support of the program publicly scrutinized? 

[Ojoman]

3 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Just curious - how were donors targeted?

Did lawyers threaten to lump them into the lawsuit or was their support of the program publicly scrutinized? 

Back 20 +/- years ago funding agencies such as the United Way were lobbied to terminate support and many did. In Philadelphia the council lost their office that the Scouts built on city property with a promise of perpetual use when the city pulled the rug out from under them. Here in Syracuse we lost over 100k and that forced cutbacks in the LFL and Scoutreach programs. Scoutreach hurt the most. Some folks felt that our stance was political in nature and dropped us while others left after we changed our policy feeling we 'sold out'. It was a 'can't win' scenario. The BSA was caught between a rock and a hard place on the admission of girls (which I 100% support) and then the lawsuit and bankruptcy where long time donors saw camps sold and endowments reduced and other properties like Philmont, mortgaged to pay into the settlement fund. Examples and stories could go on and on... Public perception thanks to the lawyers painting the program as a haven for abusers lost some of it's luster and with smaller support services due to financial constraints membership and units (chartered partners) has suffered. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Some major donors, think Fortune 500 companies,  were being threatened with boycotts. Government agencies with Explorer Posts were targeted with lawsuits for violating the separation between church and state. Which is why career oriented Exploring went under Learning for Life, and more traditional outdoor Exploring became Venturing. Folks targeted the Dept.of Defense or Dept. of the Army (sorry do not remember which) for allowing the BSA to use Fort A.P. Hill, now called Fort Walker, for jamborees.

[BetterWithCheddar]

To my relief, when I went to register for the family campout, it was only $45 per family, rather than per person. Now my only gripe is the size of the medical form we're required to fill out. My son is 6. This is our first overnight Scouting event. It appears to have more pages than when I was a kid. 😒

[skeptic]

10 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

To my relief, when I went to register for the family campout, it was only $45 per family, rather than per person. Now my only gripe is the size of the medical form we're required to fill out. My son is 6. This is our first overnight Scouting event. It appears to have more pages than when I was a kid. 😒

Blame it on the lawyers.  CYA runs rampant nowadays, especially with BSA.  But it really does intrude on us all far too often.  Our HOA is suffering from the lack of personal responsibility being a consideration in law suits.    A Child is injured playing on site and it is the fault of the HOA, even though a number of us saw her get knocked down on the grass by her large puppy.  And falling off of something not men=ant to be a seat is simply the way things happen with kids playing.  Similarly, elderly being a bit unstable with age and mobility is a common issue, but if a fall occurs it is the fault of the HOA, even if the person has shown a tendency toward balance issues.  I have those issues, and I keep a hiking pole for balance should I need it, and I am cognicent that surfaces are not always perfect and that I need to pay attention to steps and such.  What can we say.  It is always the fault of something or someone other than ourselves.  

[BetterWithCheddar]

I've got a new one for everyone. It's not necessarily Cub-related, but I think it fits the spirit of the thread.

Yesterday, my Cub-age son and I attended an event at one of our local council camps. While he was deep in a handicraft project, one of the volunteers mentioned the council now charges junior staffers $100/week for the privilege of working on summer camp staff.

I staffed the same camp for a few years and was considered a "counselor in training" (CIT) when I was 14 and 15. I did not receive any pay for those 2 summers, but was scheduled for ~75% of the paid staff hours and could pursue advancement opportunities in my free time. I still worked >50 hours per week at $0 / hour. It was a bargain for the council, but I enjoyed it.

Fast forward many years and the prospect of paying for my son to work at the same camp does not sit well with me. By staffing council camps as CITs, we're already asking these kids to forgo pay, "optional" off-season sports practice, and earning extra HS/college credits. Now we're charging them? What are we doing here?

[cmd]

It's hard to find a job as a 14 or 15 year old, so they're likely not giving up much in the way of other employment.

When I worked at girl scout camp back in the 90s, CITs had to pay something and managing them was nearly as much work as the campers.  We did also hire girls the same age as kitchen help and they stayed the entire summer and were paid. I remember thinking it was strange and being told that having unpaid workers was somehow a much greater liability than if they were paying for the experience.  Still don't understand that, but labor laws can be weird 

My question: did we really charge experienced adult scouters for the privilege of working the jamboree? And then complain about being understaffed?

[InquisitiveScouter]

52 minutes ago, cmd said:

My question: did we really charge experienced adult scouters for the privilege of working the jamboree? And then complain about being understaffed?

Yes.  Yes, they did.

[Delphinus]

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

I've got a new one for everyone. It's not necessarily Cub-related, but I think it fits the spirit of the thread.

Yesterday, my Cub-age son and I attended an event at one of our local council camps. While he was deep in a handicraft project, one of the volunteers mentioned the council now charges junior staffers $100/week for the privilege of working on summer camp staff.

I staffed the same camp for a few years and was considered a "counselor in training" (CIT) when I was 14 and 15. I did not receive any pay for those 2 summers, but was scheduled for ~75% of the paid staff hours and could pursue advancement opportunities in my free time. I still worked >50 hours per week at $0 / hour. It was a bargain for the council, but I enjoyed it.

Fast forward many years and the prospect of paying for my son to work at the same camp does not sit well with me. By staffing council camps as CITs, we're already asking these kids to forgo pay, "optional" off-season sports practice, and earning extra HS/college credits. Now we're charging them? What are we doing here?

Wow! It's one thing to ask them to volunteer and provide free labor, but to charge them on top of that. Good luck getting teenagers to forego their summer vacations for that! The summer camp we went to in July did a great job, but they were understaffed by about 15 people. This will only make it much much worse.

[SSScout]

Yep. Paid for the "privilege" of staffing the Jamboree. Three times.  Bought the tent, the cot, the semi "ambient " temp showers, the pavilion I worked in, bought the meals, bought the necker, the nameplate, the tables and chairs.  AND THEN,,,,  we paid a fee for the pavilion space for our exhibit.... What would my "labor" have been worth?   The Scouts I helped along the way? The other adults I met who needed a listening ear and some re-alignment of their "purpose" there...   

Scoutson did too.  

Now, if we had been at a resort, where everything was done FOR us, and the towels were replaced everyday, and the showers were as hot as we desired.....   I wonder what the price would've been then....

When I hiked the Camino de Santiago some years back,  most of my stuff was on my back,  the alberges (hostels) were cheap by any standard, the shower was hot early in the day(!), but it was understood the entertainment was on us Perigrinos, and the alberge was either a local government or nationally supported thing.  AND it was equally understood we were dropping alot of tourist Euros along the way.... 

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Yep. Paid for the "privilege" of staffing the Jamboree. Three times.  Bought the tent, the cot, the semi "ambient " temp showers, the pavilion I worked in, bought the meals, bought the necker, the nameplate, the tables and chairs.  AND THEN,,,,  we paid a fee for the pavilion space for our exhibit.... What would my "labor" have been worth?   The Scouts I helped along the way? The other adults I met who needed a listening ear and some re-alignment of their "purpose" there...   

Scoutson did too.  

Now, if we had been at a resort, where everything was done FOR us, and the towels were replaced everyday, and the showers were as hot as we desired.....   I wonder what the price would've been then....

When I hiked the Camino de Santiago some years back,  most of my stuff was on my back,  the alberges (hostels) were cheap by any standard, the shower was hot early in the day(!), but it was understood the entertainment was on us Perigrinos, and the alberge was either a local government or nationally supported thing.  AND it was equally understood we were dropping alot of tourist Euros along the way.... 

They could really make this easier on themselves.

Adults!  Come volunteer at the Jamboree! You'll need to bring your own camping gear (size limits on the tent), but we will feed you.

Your fee will be to sponsor a Scout from your council to attend the Jamboree as well.  Yes, this could be your own Scout!

I would have done that... would you?

[MattR]

Looking at it from the other side I'm not surprised. They don't have the numbers so, rather than adjust their budget they charge CITs. Summer camp itself is already North of $450.

This is why we put on our own summer camp. And the price was very close to $100 per scout and adults paid nothing. That has its own cost, in time, but it was fun.