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As one who spent a career writing and interpreting safety and health laws and regulations, these BSA rules clearly smack of "CYA" on the part of the BSA.  They are there in case anything happens, then the BSA can say, "well, we told them not to do it."  The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

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57 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

As one who spent a career writing and interpreting safety and health laws and regulations, these BSA rules clearly smack of "CYA" on the part of the BSA.  They are there in case anything happens, then the BSA can say, "well, we told them not to do it."  The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

I agree. Ambiguous rules or not, BSA cannot tell immediate family members that they can't be one to one. 

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1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

The BSA has NO authority over me and my interactions with my own family.

OK, then how about this rule.

Quote

Tenting
• In Cub Scouting, parents and guardians may share a tent with their family.
• In all other programs, youth and adults tent separately.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?
 

 

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

OK, then how about this rule.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?

 

This topic has been about interactions outside of scouting.  I think you are making the same mistake as BSA when you confuse the two things.  There is a big difference between regulating activities at a unit campout and trying to control people's interactions outside of scouting.

 

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

OK, then how about this rule.

So, you are on a Scouts, BSA camp out and decide that you are going to tent with your son (we've had this come up with camping in my area due to COVID). Are you therefore indicating that you'll ignore the rule and tent with your son?

Tent with my son on an outing??  That would mean that we would need to speak with other on an outing, possibly make eye contact, and horrors, he would need to acknowledge that he knows me and potentially have interaction with me.

As none of those are going to happen, the whole tenting together is not happening.  Plus he has BO and talks in his sleep.

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When I am at a Troop Meeting or Campout with my son (usually I am the first there and last to leave), I start the two deep adult leadership the second another scout shows up and their parent has to stay until another scout leader appears. Parents that need adult children or cousins to take scouts to meetings (because of work, etc), always tell me who they have authorized to drop off and pick up their children. In this case the line starts when the scout arrives at a meeting our outing. Occasionally I pick up and return a scout home for a parent, so my son or another adult is with me to comply with regs and the line starts at pick up and drop off. I occasionally meet with scouts for advancement stuff at McDonalds or via Zoom, but the scout's parents must be there with me (or another adult leader of the troop). 

Other than my son, I am never alone with a scout in my troop outside of scouting. Outside of scouting, my son can be alone with anyone I deem as a parent safe to be alone with. If any of these persons are involved in scouting care should be taken to protect the BSA. Extended family that are in scouting seems okay. Friends and neighbors? In the end, they should practice two deep adult supervision or the buddy system to avoid one on one contact even outside of scouting. These rules will work to protect anyone supervising children inside or outside of scouting, so use it as much as possible...even within your own extended family.

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20 hours ago, qwazse said:

. Right now "public service" announcements are reminding us that being exposed to pornography is a form of sexual abuse.

 

Yeah, I've seen that one too...  Great!  Lets water down the concept and criminalize more people at the same time.  I can already picture the headline.  Some 14-year old gets found looking at a porn site and between an outraged parent and a DA looking to get re-elected using a "tough on crime" platform, suddenly the classmate he/she got the link from is on trial for a sex crime.

And since I want to be crystal clear, there is a clear and significant distinction between an adult exposing a youth to porn as a grooming tool and kids talking about and sharing that stuff among themselves.

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This is in the Open Discussion-Program sub forum and the discussion about porn is not related.

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6 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

BSA is not the only organization that does this.  My religion has provisions for excommunication for certain acts, even if those acts occur outside of church or church functions. 

My religion does not impose any rules about not having appropriate one-on-one interactions outside of church functions.  Nor does it impose two-deep adult leadership outside of church.  I don't know of any religion or organization, other than BSA, that does this.  I do think BSA is unique in this regard.  I could be wrong, but I don't know of any.

 

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15 hours ago, MattR said:

This is in the Open Discussion-Program sub forum and the discussion about porn is not related.

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT.  I mean, my troop can't be the only one where there has been a scout caught watching inappropriate material on a cell phone.   So when that happens, is it just a teen/tween being a standard kid or is that scout now a possible sexual abuse victim (because someone exposed them to it or allowed them to be exposed to it) that the Scoutmaster needs to report to Council and possibly the Police/Child Services?

That said, I won't belabor the point as I have no further comments to make on the issue.

Edited by elitts

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2 hours ago, elitts said:

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT.  I mean, my troop can't be the only one where there has been a scout caught watching inappropriate material on a cell phone.   So when that happens, is it just a teen/tween being a standard kid or is that scout now a possible sexual abuse victim (because someone exposed them to it or allowed them to be exposed to it) that the Scoutmaster needs to report to Council and possibly the Police/Child Services?

That said, I won't belabor the point as I have no further comments to make on the issue.

It's an interesting side question for certain.  How does the evolving of abuse factor into what is reported?  Perhaps 10 years ago it would have been considered absurd to report that. Today some on the more leading edge of this topic probably would suggest you do.  10, 20 years from now - who knows?  There may be a time when it would be considered shocking that we didn't report it.  Or maybe folks will decide that this is overreach.  Your guess is as good as mine.

I suspect that today the BSA guidance would be to follow the G2SS and report what it describes.  If the BSA updates it's materials to include that, then report what they advise at that time.

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7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

It's an interesting side question for certain.  How does the evolving of abuse factor into what is reported?  Perhaps 10 years ago it would have been considered absurd to report that. Today some on the more leading edge of this topic probably would suggest you do.  10, 20 years from now - who knows?  There may be a time when it would be considered shocking that we didn't report it.  Or maybe folks will decide that this is overreach.  Your guess is as good as mine.

I suspect that today the BSA guidance would be to follow the G2SS and report what it describes.  If the BSA updates it's materials to include that, then report what they advise at that time.

Interesting.

For some reason, young men of scouting age think tents are sound proof. Not a big deal in normal camping situations, but tents set up side by side on High Adventure Outings can put adults in difficult situations as Scouts in their innocence have discussions that would concern many mothers. A mother once told me any discussion her son had with other scouts that is sexual in nature was abuse by the other scouts and should be reported.

My wife ran into something like this when two scouts in her GS troop were writing provocative stories at night during summer camp. She inquired the GSUSA equivalent of a SE if there was anything she should say to the parents. The SE insisted my wife call the police and send a report to National. My wife left the GS office and withdrew my daughter and herself from the GSUSA. The over-reaction by the adults scared her a lot more than the curious writtings of the two young girls. I can see how this can get out of control in a CYA culture.

Barry

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8 hours ago, elitts said:

I agree that a "discussion about porn" isn't related; however, I will argue (just one time) that the existence of porn IS related by virtue of it being a potential factor in YPT. 

I can't believe I'm saying this but thank you for making the connection between porn and scouts. 😀 Now we're closer to back on track.

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I'm so old, I can remember when this was about adult family members being one to one with child family members.

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