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John-in-KC

Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

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Since when does one need to be a laywer to learn the methods, policies, and procedures of unit operations?

 

Do you really need a lawyer to understand how to lead a scout program?

 

Why?

 

Wouldn't simply learning about the program be more effective and far less expensive.

 

 

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If a Scout wants to wear his uniform during an Eagle Service Project he can. There is nothing stopping OR requiring him to do so.

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What prohibits him are the policies and procedures of scouting. What should stop him is the character and scouting knowledge of his local scout leaders.

 

Leading the event in a Scout uniform gives the impression that the event is done under the sponsorship of his unit, council, or national program. That is a misrepresentation of the facts. The Project is done "outside the sphere of scouting" and because of that he should not be using the name and images of scouting in connection with the event or when soliciting money or equipment for another organization.

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BW,

 

The legal background question goes to your continuing comments on liability.

 

I trust Mr Chris Wolfe of the National Office, formerly with my Council. He's a CPA, and has taken accounting and legal training in liability. I've taken Scouting Liability at Commissioner College from him; but since I'm laity, and it was several years ago, I tend to listen when others discuss this issue anymore.

 

I trust NLDScouter, who is a Judge, and Beavah, who hasn't quite said he's an attorney, but sure as heck as disclaimed a couple of posts. They've both talked liability from the perspective of the law.

 

I ask again: Your legal background, Sir?

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Have to admit to never having lost a minutes sleep worrying about what Scouts and non-Scouts wear while working on a project.

Back when OJ did his project, I know that it was during the summer. The project involved a fair amount of digging.

He had about 20 of pals his age helping him, most were not members of the BSA and from the pictures I have seen (I was away with the Ship the weekend of his project!). There wasn't a uniform in sight.

The project was done for the local YMCA.

OJ is not a member of the YMCA, I'm not sure how many? If any of the people who helped with the project are members.

I'm not a lawyer.

But I kinda think that when the YMCA gave their permission /approval for the project,the YMCA was not only allowing OJ to go ahead and do the project, they were also allowing the BSA to take on the work.

The project was reviewed before it was started by his Troop leadership and approved by the District Advancement Chair. Who was acting as an agent of the Council.

While I'm not an expert in contract law, I think that some kind of a contract was in some way implied.

OJ was doing the project as a member of the BSA, doing work that had been approved by the Council.

To my pea sized noggin this makes this a Scouting activity and does come under the BSA.

When the project was completed and approved by the YMCA, OJ met with the board of the local YMCA and received a certificate from the board, he was in full uniform for the photos.

 

The District has used the grounds of the YMCA for several events, I have not been involved in the organization of these events. So I'm unsure if the YMCA has requested a certificate of insurance for these or not.

I do know that when OJ asked the local Director of the YMCA if a certificate of insurance was needed for the project? The Director said that it wasn't needed. Of course he is just the local guy and as we know local officials are sometimes not always right.

I really don't see any difference in a Scout working on an Eagle Scout Leadership project than a Patrol of Scouts camping in Farmer Jones field. In my book both a real Scouting activities and if the paper work (Eagles Scout Leadership Service project book -Signed with all the correct approvals - Tour Permit and SM approval for a Patrol Camp.) Both are Scouting activities.

To say that a Lad working on a approved project is in some way not working or involved in /on a Scouting activity? Just seems a bit daffy.

As far as the uniform thing goes?

I don't see any real need for a uniform to be worn and as in OJ's case with so many non Scouts helping it would just seem a little silly.

Eamonn.

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Let's see. This is an Eagle Service Project. This is part of the path to earning the highest award the Boy Scouts of America bestows on a youth member. Would a Girl Scout be completing (not participating in) and Eagle project? No. Would a member of the 4H club? No. How about an Indian Guide? Nah! Could it be possible that only a member of the Boy Scouts of America would be completing an Eagle project? Why yes!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Guest OldGreyEagle

From the Second class requirements:

 

2. a. Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight.

 

From the First Class requirements:

 

3. Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight.

 

It never has occured to me not to count a scout's attendance at an Eagle Scout project as a troop activity because the Eagle Scout project is not a troop event. What do other troops do? Do you count being present at an Eagle Project as an activity for rank advancement? I am not asking if you think its right or wrong, only if you count it as such

 

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OGE,

 

When I was Advancement Coordinator for my Troop, Eagle Projects went on Troopmaster as events.

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OGE,

Yes in my troop, scouts are recruited to help with Eagle projects, in fact, I have yet to see any non-scouts at any of our project. Attendance is taken at activity; hours recorded in Troopmaster towards their Star or Life service requirements, troop hours credited on national Good Turn website. Publicity photos taken and submitted to local paper. The other intended benefit for these younger scouts is to learn how-to plan and organize an Eagle project. No small coincidence, that those scouts volunteering are likely future Eagles. Sure seems like a scout activity to me.

 

Eagle candidate wears Class A except during the physical labor when all, depending on weather, wear Class B. This however, is not required; Scouts have found this works the best and is practical. No complaints from scouts, CO, Council.

 

My $0.02 - I teach my scouts to follow the Scout Oath and Law everyday, to act as scouts always whether they are wearing the uniform or not. This concept of "outside the sphere of scouting" drives me nuts. If you want the BSA, Council, and the insurance carrier to not be liable then so state - require an insurance waiver for participants and tell them 'as always if any of your scouts are hurt or killed the BSA will disavow any knowledge...Good luck Jim'. But don't try to sell this nonsense that an Eagle Scout service project approved by SM, Troop Committee, District Eagle Board with scout manpower is "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

Now suppose an Eagle candidate came up for his EBOR and it was public knowledge that he had committed some foolish act - involved in a cheating scandal at school, set a brush fire with fireworks,...and this is questioned by reviewers. His response, "Sir, that occurred outside the sphere of scouting." Oh right, okay next question ...I don't think so.

 

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Rememberschiff

One topic at a time might be easier to understand.

 

If you read back in the thread you will see that we are not discussing whether or not the scouts actions count toward scouting.

 

The fact is that there are times when it is inappropriate to wear the scout uniform and endorse your activity as a scout activity.

 

You do not wear your scout uniform in the regular performance of your job outside of scouting do you? Of course not because it is done outside the sphere of your role in scouting.

 

Nor would you wear your uniform if you volunteered to stand on the corner and sell tootsie rolls as a member of the Kiwanis Club, because you are not there as a scouter.

 

Does that mean you can't reflect scouting ideals? Of courcse not. But ceratinly you recognize that these actions are outside the sphere of scouting, and so you do not pretend or imply that they are sponsored or endorsed by the unit, council or national office of the BSA.

 

The Eagle project is done by the candidate as a volunteer representative of the benefitting organization "outside the sphere of scouting". This is not a difficult concept.

 

Is the Eagle project a troop activity? No, the advancement policy and the Eagle workbook clearly explain that it is NOT a unit project but an individual effort by the candidate and that no other scout or scout unit need be involved.

 

If the troop is asked to particiapte by the project leader they may do so, and their invlovement is a troop activity...but NOT the candidates involvement...the candidate is there as the volunteer for the benefitting organization NOT as a representative of scouting. His project is outside the sphere of scouting but recognized for his advancement requirement just as other advancement work outside of troop activities is recognized.

 

 

 

 

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An Eagle project might not be a unit project, but it is a BSA project. And being a BSA project makes it perfectly OK for a Scout to wear his BSA uniform when participating or leading an Eagle project. Just because the project is to be done for an organization other than the BSA does not mean it isn't a BSA project.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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If it's an individual's activity alone, I guess I don't as SM have to sign anywhere either. It's none of the unit's business, nor should it be the SM's business either. The troop doesn't approve the project nor acceptance of it's completion. Maybe the DE ought to be signing on the project and leave the troop out of it as long as it's not a troop activity.

 

Stosh

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This is not the only case where a BSA member cannot wear a uniform.

 

Jblake, it has been stated several times that the fact that the uniform is not worn or that the project is outside the sphere of scouting that you can still accept any scouts work outside of scout toward his advancement if it meets the BSA criteria.

 

I do not understand the apparent willingness of some leaders to create rules that do not exist but ignore ones that do.

 

 

 

 

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Again, all we're spouting here is personal opinion and laymens' interpretations which aren't worth a bucket of warm spit. I have seen nothing that convinces me that any one opinion is any more valid than another, much less a chapter and verse reference. All of the Eagle projects I've been involved in have been "Troop Events", and I would expect all BSA policies and insurance to apply. But people (and insurance companies) are surprised by Judges' decisions every day. If, however, the Scout executes the project on his own, without the assistance of other BSA members, that's a different situation.

 

And I agree with Eamonn...I ain't losing sleep over any of this. Some people just enjoy arguing.

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