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John-in-KC

Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP

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Guest OldGreyEagle

I understand the point Bob White is making about the Eagle project not being a "scouting" project. The sponsoring organization cannot be part of Boy Scouts and it is the sponsoring organizatin that ultimately decides the sucess or failure of the project.

 

But I still am not sure about the uniform thing. I decided to check out the NESA website as I hold them to be the knowledge base of all things Eagle, even though I know they are not the BSA.

 

I found this link http://www.nesa.org/trail/projects/index.html to a section titled "Notable Eagle Projects". It appears that of the 6 projects discussed, 3 have pictures of either the scout himself or other scouts engaging in the project in full field uniform.

 

Now, since NESA is not part of the BSA, they could be wrong, but if NESA is wrong, it's no wonder so many units scouters are wrong. I guess the people who proof the NESA website need training(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

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Unfortunately you stopped reading at #6 because had you read #7 you would have seen this.

 

7) Will the fund-raising project avoid soliciting

money or gifts?

 

The BSA Rules and Regulations state, Youth

members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors

of money for their chartered organizations, for the

local council, or in support of other organizations.

Adult and youth members shall not be permitted

to serve as solicitors of money in support of

personal or unit participation in local, national, or

international events.

 

For example: Scouts and leaders should not identify

themselves as Scouts or as a troop participate

in the Salvation Armys Christmas Bell Ringing

program. This would be raising money for another

organization.

 

The candidates role in the project is a personal activity in support of a local organization done "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

OGE's point about the project not serving scouting is coorect BUT it is a separate issue and not related to the project being done outside the sphere of scouting.

 

The other scouts as part of a troop activity volunteering to help on a community project can wear a uniform as long as they are not fundraising. Scouts in uniform providing labor for a community project is not at issue so long as soliciting money or gifts is not involved.

 

The candidate being in uniform is perhaps an editorial choice to identify the candiate as part of the article..none of us know. Because the candiate is not there as a scout, he is there as a community volunteer he should not be in uniform. He uses his volunteerism leading this project toward his scouting requirement, but the BSA says that he is doing this project "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

Clause 6 in the BSA Uniform Regulations found in the Insignia Guide states that...

"The official uniforms are intended primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities as defined by the national Executive Board, and their use may be approved by the local council executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistent with the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

The Eagle Service project is not a council event, and the National Executive Board has already told us that the candidate's project is done "outside the sphere of Scouting" so the uniform would not be consistent with the use as defined by the Executive Board.

 

I am sorry so few were aware of, or care for, these rules. But you need to stop blaming the messenger.

 

 

if the rules and regs give you pain-ing

and policies drive you insane-ing

ther's no need to mope

there is still lots of hope

perhaps all you need is more training(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Thanks, Bob. You saved me the trouble of researching Beavah's question, which I think was tongue in cheek anyway.

 

I am not an attorney, but in my profession, we read and interpret legalese every day. I apply the "duck test" and the "reasonable man" theory. It has served me well.

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I read the entire thing. I only posted what I felt was relevant.

 

Primarily doesn't equal always.

 

An Eagle project doesn't require a Unit Money Earning form. And the way I read it, the rules Bob & I have posted are in connection with the Unit Money Earning form. So we still have nothing that says "A Scout is not allowed to wear his uniform while leading an Eagle Service Project. And I doubt one exists. It seems to be the interpretation of some posters who think it is a BSA rule or reg.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

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Guest OldGreyEagle

Can we stick with what I post? Thank you

 

check the link I posted, I will repost in case the first one was tainted

 

http://www.nesa.org/trail/projects/index.html

 

Now, on the page should be the following:

 

One of a boy's last steps to Eagle is to plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to his religious institution, school, or community. It doesn't have to be originalsomething that has never been done beforebut it certainly could be. The Eagle Scout candidate must, however, accept responsibility for planning, directing, and following through to its successful completion. Here are a few examples of Eagle Scout Service projects. To submit a project you know about firsthand, please send the full details and your contact information to eagletter@netbsa.org, or click here to submit project information online

 

Airport Security Scanners

Comic Books for Hospitalized Children

Journals for Hospitalized Children

Memorial Observatory Deck

Miniature Flags for Soldiers

Solar Lighting in Uganda

 

I don't see anything about a #7

 

 

Edited Part

 

I posted this and then checked the link. I don't know where a reference to anything with a number 7 came from, but its not there now. Read the accounts of the 6 Eagle Projects (non-numbered), see the pictures of scouts engaged in an Eagle Project in full field uniform. And so, when can we train NESA's website proof readers?

 

Do not complain when people twist your posts when you do the same thing. How does the reference to #7 relate? I dont see it(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

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OGE

part 7) relates to the immediate previous post in which Ed referenced part 6) of the Unit Money Earning application. I then posted that had he read past part 6) to part 7) he would see the portion that actually related to soliciting donations on behalf of other organizations.

 

So I did not twist anything! I am sorry that you did not register the connection between the two posts.

 

Clause 6) which I then posted , is from the BSA Uniform Regulations as I mentioned, and was copied from the BSA Insignia Guide.

 

I think perhaps it would be better to use the BSA documented rules and policies to understand this topic rather than photos on a Web page.

 

 

 

 

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Sorry for the confusion OGE.

 

The #6 I posted & #7 Bob posted are from the Unit Money Earning form. Since an Eagle projects isn't required to complete the form, neither are applicable. I posted #6 in response to Bob's post about when a Scout is permitted to wear his uniform for fund raising purposes, not about if the uniform can be worn during an Eagle project. Bob then posted #7 in response and linked it to the Eagle project question which in fact it has nothing to do with!

 

Nothing has been posted that states a Scout can or can't wear his uniform during an Eagle project. What I take from the lack of guidance in this instance is it is up to the Scout. He can if he wants to but is by no means doing anything wrong if he does.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Gee thanks guys! Your explanations really help in understanding this! But I'm still a little fuzzy between the ears. I could be wrong, but it sounds like Bob is saying the uniform should not be worn for an Eagle project, and Ed is saying p'tooey it's not in writing. And Bob says it is in writing and quotes the book, and Ed again says a bunch of other stuff, and p'tooey again.

 

Could y'all please start again at the top in simple language that we simpletons can understand? Please help me out here, it's a fascinating topic and the thirst for knowledge is overwhelming. Bob, you go first and that will guarantee a response from Ed.

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Thanks F Scouter but I have already shown where the BSA rules and regs regarding this are documented. Ed is not the only person who shared in this conversation, nor is he the only one who has their mind made up regardless of any BSA documentation stating otherwise.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Guest OldGreyEagle

so in the words of emily litella, never mind

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Not al all OGE. I still think this is a valid topic considering that there are so many experienced scouters who were obviously surprised by the information. I just did not anticipate that after being shown BSA documented rules and regs that the retort by so many would be a hostile "is not", rather than a more intropsective discussion about what these rules mean.

 

I can hold my own in a conversation or a debate when actual meaningful evidence is involved. But when you hate the messsage and the only reason offered is because you dislike the messenger, then I do not see how any real conversation will take place.

 

Even you could not simply ask where a reference came from when you missed a point, without throwing in a personal jab. If a moderator is not moderate and willing to look at both sides then who should be expected to?

 

Thanks but if you or others actually want to understand this better then a little less hostility an lot more curiosity will need to prevail.

 

If the BSA was what each volunteer "thought" it was then it would be 1.2 million different things. The BSA is what the BSA says it is. If the BSA says that the Eagle service project is done outside the sphere of scouting, then that is what it is, regardless of anyone's personal habits or feelings.

 

You guys want to attack me for that fine. The moderators want to allow it...fine. People don't what to read the documentation or think about what it means, fine.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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The references Bob posted were from the Unit Money Earning form which doesn't apply to an Eagle Project and Clause 6 from the BSA uniform Regulations which describes the primary use of the uniform. In seems in Bob's minds he is equating primary with only. He has yet to post anything that states a Scout is not allowed or allowed to wear his uniform when leading an Eagle Project. Maybe because it just plain doesn't exist.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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I offer this conspiracy theory

 

The policy originally said something to the effect.

'While a Life Scout plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to a religious organization, school, or your community. < The project should benefit an organization other than the BSA >.'

 

But that was too clear so it was changed to allow for misinterpretation.

 

"The Eagle Scout service project provides the opportunity for the Eagle Scout Candidate to demonstrate his leadership skills that he has learned in Scouting. < He does the project outside the sphere of Scouting. >"

 

So "does the project outside the sphere of Scouting" just means a Scout can't build a brick outhouse at Scout camp but he can build one at town hall.

 

No more no less.

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Now do you see the dilemma OGE?

 

I showed the BSA refernece that states the Uniform is to be used in cinnection with scouting activites as defined by the BSA. Then I show the official referencethat says when it comes to Eagle projects that the BSA says they are done "outside the sphere of scouting".

 

Then I expect adults to be able to look at these two related rules and understand how they fit together. If the Eagle service project is done outside of scouting, then it would be incorrect for the candidate to wear the Scouting uniform.

 

The only way you can deny this is to disprove that one or both rules exist, and seeing how they are in numerous BSA resources that would be kind of hard to do.

 

The uniform rules of the Unit Money Earning Application do indeed relate to the Eagle project if the project includes soliciting donations or any kind. It substantiates that the candidate cannot associate the BSA with the solicitation.

 

So you see everything I have offered is BSA documented policies, and so far the standard reply anyone has offered is nuh-uh. I had hoped that more thoughtful energy would have been available, evidently not.

 

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I think this whole thread has gotten hilarious quite frankly.

 

Here's my take.

 

Scouts shouldn't wear field uniforms (very pricey) to service projects. It's nice to see them in activity uniforms (troop t-shirts) during these. They certainly don't have to and are not required to at any rate in our unit.

 

Eagle candidates working the project are expected to lead the project and to jump in and help when needed. Don't expect anyone to do a job you wouldn't be willing to do yourself. Sometimes a task demonstrated by the perceived leader gets better attention and respect than an order from someone standing behind the lines in a uniform.

 

I read the requirement "outside the sphere of scouting" to mean that the project cannot benefit the BSA, the Unit or the Local Council. That's it, it's got nothing to do with liability or the like, that's just silly. If it is a requirement to do a project to earn the rank, and you must get the approval of the unit and the local council before work can begin, then there is some liability there whether you wear a uniform or not and whether your volunteer base are members or not.

 

And no, I'm not a lawyer, but my daughter is in law school if that helps.

 

 

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