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ETD129-AW Chpt Adv

Parents attending OA Ceremonies

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If anyone in scouting told me to leave an event because I simply wasn't allowed to see it and raised his voice to me........I would have already pushed record on my phone and the next call would be to the Scout executive.

 

I would have that person, youth or adult removed from scouting, just that simple.

 

 

Of course I now understand the rules and homy don't play that game no more.

 

 

The Order of the Arrow ain't that special

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ThunderFox,

 

Please go back and read the thread. I posted my position at 4:25 p.m. on April 5.

 

You have used slash-and-burn tactics all through this thread, so it should come as no surprise that you attack the questioner rather than answering a simple question that goes to the heart of the debate? What is the difference between information and discouraging?

 

I agree with Eagle. Lock the thread. As for me, I'm ignoring it from now on.

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Hello Shortridge,

 

 

Well, the issue seems pretty clear to me. But others seem unpersuaded. I don't find that surprising --- few people change strongly held opinions based on an internet discussion.

 

 

And perhaps I'm wrong. That's always possible too.

 

So what to do? Since this issue appears to me to be a youth protection policy issue, if I were confronted with it, I'd file a complaint with my Council Executive, who is the person responsible for managing youth protection policies AND OA.

 

Let the Council Executive investigate and decide what should be done. Even if they decide an OA leader were improperly burdening a parent's right to observe a Scout activity, I'd say it's very unlikely that person would be kicked out of Scouting. They'd probably be counseled about the correct policy to follow with the expectation it wouldn't happen again.

 

Or perhaps I'd be told that what is being done is OK.

 

This is a way of getting an authoritative resolution of this issue, by the person charged with making the decision ---the council Scout Executive.

 

 

 

 

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SP and TF. Get a grip guys! Please do yourselves a favor and reread the entire thread without your bias. Read things in context. You villify myself and others for explaining what IS policy and our desire to perform our jobs in Scouting the way they are proscribed to be done. No where in this thread have I read where an Advisor wished to prevent a parent from access. Discouraged does not equal exclude. Education does not equal bullying. You can continue to have the thoughts you have but you are still wrong. There is no youth protection issue here.

 

Do the research yourself. Go have that talk with your SE and sign up for the very next NLATS course and learn for yourself!

 

Now for the ugly part: SP, why not focus on your responsibilites rather than those of other trained adults. It seems you are involved in the Cub Scout level. STAY THERE! We have enough issues in Boy Scouting caused by Cub Scouters that we really do not need even more attacking our Honor Society. I wonder if you and TF were OA members as youth? If you were how was your expierence? If not is that the source of your seeming hostility towards the OA? The OA sadly is just a shadow of what it once was as is Scouting itself IMHO. The knee-jerk, sky is falling, CYA, paranoid, eliminate rather than manage all risk types have made it so. Perhaps you will be happy when they remove the outdoors from SC......!

 

And SP if you wish to give Robert Fawcett a call I am sure he will know who I am. You could even go visit the folks in the council south of you and have a chat with two close friends that transfered there from here. All advisors serve at the discretion of the Supreme Chief of the Fire, should he wish to remove me so be it. Until such a time I will do my best to fulfill my duties as procribed by the program as it is written which is exactly as Eagle 92 has so stated. Perhaps it is my enthusiasm that frightens you?

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I entered OA when I was a Scoutmaster circa 1984 or so.

 

As I said earlier, I don't expect to change minds like yours. Perhaps I'm not correct --- just as you suggest.

 

The one thing it sounds like we can agree on is that a complaint to a Council Executive would be an appropriate way to resolve such an issue --- which is not going to happen here.

 

I certainly would do that if I encountered such actions by an OA adult leader at some time.

 

And frankly, until this thread started, I'd never had anything but positive experiences with OA. But now I'm quite concerned about over involved adult leaders who are so enmeshed in the program that they might well engage in behavior that would be detrimental to Scouting.

 

That might be why increasing numbers of Scoutmasters want nothing to do with the program.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

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OK I am giving up on this. I was hoping for civility, but it's not happening.I am just going to do my part, follow the rules, and focus on my scouts.

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In a nutshell

 

 

SM's don't want anything to do with the OA because it has the potential to divert an active Leader position boy into something else scouting. Getting a decent youth leadership core is hard enough with out offering something else that would occupy his time.

 

 

Maybe it is time the OA is put to out to pasture???????

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We don't "lock" topics. But those that opine in a nasty manner may get their posts deleted. And those that want to continue with a respectable discussion may do so.

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Some comments that I'd like you to consider.

 

(1) HAZING. Hazing used to be the Big Concern. Do you know of any concrete instance where a person was hazed at an OA function?

 

Having been in lodge leadership, having been involved in ceremonies, I never ran into any during my time as a scout. . . nor did I hear (and I kept an open ear) of any hazing in our lodge. We firmly--youth as well as adults--were opposed to letting hazing happen, since we liked the OA.

 

(2) Parents have fewer kids, and they also have concerns about abuse. . . as well as social pressure to "bond" and spend more time with their child. So now I read of troops with a gadzillion assistant scoutmasters! :) So this generation of parents wants to follow Johnny around more than those in the past.

 

(3) A mature parent should be able to sit down with the scoutmaster or OA representative, learn the contents of the Ordeal, etc., and judge for himself whether Johnny should do this. There is no particular need to physically attend the event.

 

(4) This said, it should be fine to let a parent attend if he has serious reason to do so, and not just jerking around or curious. As a youth I was very upset that my father asked to attend, and attending, a ceremony in which I was a principal. I just felt like the man was snooping and that this was a harmful thing to the serious business that we were trying to do. (The view of a youth).

 

(5) Developmentally, the youth doing the ceremonies take these seriously, and are perhaps even less likely than we adults to want to throw open the door to anybody, for any reason.

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Gee guys I am kinda neutral on this...in seems interesting but I really don't know about OA much and frankly don't have the time to find out. I see the sashs on some of the boys and that is about it.

 

I feel a little more negative about OA now by this discourse. Probably not fair...

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"Some comments that I'd like you to consider.

 

(1) HAZING. Hazing used to be the Big Concern. Do you know of any concrete instance where a person was hazed at an OA function?

 

Having been in lodge leadership, having been involved in ceremonies, I never ran into any during my time as a scout. . . nor did I hear (and I kept an open ear) of any hazing in our lodge. We firmly--youth as well as adults--were opposed to letting hazing happen, since we liked the OA.

 

(2) Parents have fewer kids, and they also have concerns about abuse. . . as well as social pressure to "bond" and spend more time with their child. So now I read of troops with a gadzillion assistant scoutmasters! So this generation of parents wants to follow Johnny around more than those in the past.

 

(3) A mature parent should be able to sit down with the scoutmaster or OA representative, learn the contents of the Ordeal, etc., and judge for himself whether Johnny should do this. There is no particular need to physically attend the event.

 

(4) This said, it should be fine to let a parent attend if he has serious reason to do so, and not just jerking around or curious. As a youth I was very upset that my father asked to attend, and attending, a ceremony in which I was a principal. I just felt like the man was snooping and that this was a harmful thing to the serious business that we were trying to do. (The view of a youth).

 

(5) Developmentally, the youth doing the ceremonies take these seriously, and are perhaps even less likely than we adults to want to throw open the door to anybody, for any reason. "

 

Mr. Boyce:

 

Just some comments to the comments:

 

1. hazing. I don't think anyone has indicating that hazing is a norm. However, to look at the past is not an absolute representation of what will happen in the future. I am not saying it will, or is, etc., but, the "appearance" of the forum for such acvtion is sometimes just as bad as the action itself.

 

2. ASM I have a gadzillion scoutmasters. And I welcome it. It keeps the adults involved, gives them some ownership in the troop, and allows them to see and experience what their boys are doing. Much better than scout day care.

 

3. need to attend I think we should allow the parents to decide whether there is a need to attend, and, it really should not matter why they want to attend. Heck, if they want to go just to watch it like a award ceremony, they have the right to do so and we shouldn't try to convince them or encourage them not to. I just think differently, as is seen by my desire to have as many parents involved as want to be. I think every boy deserves to see his dad active.

 

4 and 5. serious business? I don't think any of the scouts in my troop consider the OA to be "serious business". resume points, maybe; serious business, No. Sorry, maybe things have changed with time.

 

Not really kicking tires, but just throwing some counter comments out there. Hopefully, it will get me into the club where I am just a dumb, stupid SOB who shouldn't have anything to do with anything because I think differently like SP or others. lol

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I was elected into the OA as a youth in 1970. It was what kept me in Scouting. This whole thread amazes me. The OP question was pretty straigtforward. The answer is, YES, a parent can attend and observe ANY scout function that their child is involved in. Period. No one at the Coucil, District, Lodge or Unit level can controvert that. And as far as "secrets" are concerned, a 5 minute Google search takes care of that myth. Perhaps the OA has lost its appeal...most kids nowadays are not interested in "cheerful service" unless it involves some payback for them. Not their fault...it's how they are being raised.

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