How much Military in Scouting?

[John-in-KC]

When Beavah wrote the below,

 

"Yah, and I appreciate the sentiment that many have that the BSA should reflect the military more, especially those who have served. Even agree with it some. Few doubt that the armed forces as a whole have operated more honorably than the civilian leadership the past decade."

 

I was intrigued.

 

I'm an older soldier now. Veteran and retiree. I've been a Scout, and now I'm a Scouter.

 

I look at the Civil Air Patrol Youth Squadron, which my Chartered Partner also sponsors. I look at formations, mandatory study periods, and sometimes "not a lot of fun going on."

 

I look at Scouts and Venturers. I see young men, and women, learning discipline, call to task, and growth to maturity in different ways.

 

I don't know about the other Veterans, serving Soliders, Sailors, Marines, Airmen, and Coast Guardsmen, or retirees here, but if I wanted my child in a high discipline centralized authority group, I would have enrolled him in CAP or JROTC.

 

Further, I ask this not only at the program implementation level, in the units, but also at the program support level... district and Council? How many of us want the management that (Battalion/Regiment/Squadron/Wing) put upon US???

 

What say you, my once and former comrades-in-arms?

[rangersteve]

I think the balance is just fine. If you want strictly military type activities than find a military group or venue. Steve

[Gonzo1]

I tend to agree with RangerSteve. It also depends on the military experience and attitude of the adult leadership in the unit.

 

For example, when I enlisted, because of my BSA experience (we marched in parades) I knew how to stand at attention and do some basic marching. When I was a boy, my dad and another dad (both veterans) taught close order drill (marching basics) to us for a couple weeks before parades. My SM was in the Coast Guard and we called the floor the 'deck' and all ropes were 'lines'. However, we used a latrine or KYBO, not the 'head'.

 

CAP, ROTC youth programs, etc. will definitely add the military aspect that some may be looking for.

 

I would like to see less 'squirming' at colors formations. We probably don't need to square them away like UCMC drill instructors.

 

[scoutldr]

I agree, less is more. My pet peeve is flag ceremonies at camp, where the colors detail has every movement preceeded by an order barked out by a staff member with a megaphone. A simple "Color guard, post the colors" followed by silence would suffice. We don't need, "Color guard, forward march", "Color guard, halt", "Color guard, inward face", etc etc. Agree with the less squirming comment. Scouts should be taught to stand silently and render the proper salute when appropriate.

 

Then there's the odd troop from out of council, all identically dressed, who will come marching down the trail with guidon and SPL calling cadence. Sheesh.

[Gonzo1]

On the other hand, I like the 'smartness' of a well done color guard. Sloppy colors presentations irk me.

 

[baden]

As a former member of the U.S. Army I must say that I am somewhat put off by leaders that attempt to militarize Scout units. Back at the dawn of time, when I was a Scout, our Scoutmaster was a WWII vet. He was a combat veteran and had no use for any attempt to instill military attitudes in our Troop. We had an ASM who was the father of one of the members of my Patrol that thought we should do what he called Scout Drill. Our SM said something like, "this is the Boy Scouts of America, not the Hitler Youth." End of Scout Drill.

[Gonzo1]

Baden,

It's not about turning them into little soldiers, I think it's more about standing at attention for as long as it takes to do a flag ceremony. How about walking in straight lines, on the same step during a parade. You know, attention, forward march, halt, at ease, etc. I don't think they should be expected to out perform The Old Guard. I just don't don't sqirming and talking "in ranks" during colors or announcements, or day I say 'formation'. They probably don't need to do 'dress right, DRESS' but they be in lines.

 

Gonzo1

CPT, USAR, Ret.

 

[baden]

Gonzo1

 

I hear what you're saying. But you don't have to perform according to DD22-5 (Army Field Manual-Conduct of Drill and Ceremony) to show respect for the flag. I don't view this as military training, rather it is educating the boys on one aspect of citizenship. We have a Troop in our District (and there is always at least one) that looks like a JROTC Unit when we get together at Camporees. Their SM and ASM are good guys but have no military background. They march to and from "Flags" in a fine manner and their campsite would make my old Drill Sergeant swell with pride. The main argument I have against their method of operation is it is totally adult led.

[scottteng]

Our council rents "our" camp to the young marines for their summer encampment after boy scout summer camp is done. My only contact with the young marines is as a volunteer boy scout rifle rangemaster at their encampment. Young marines is coed and serves a wider age group than boy scouts to include most of our cub age. From 8 years old thru 18. These boys and girls are sharper than the boy scouts at certain things when a adult asks a rhetorical question the response is Sir Yes Sir. Boy scout response more likely to be yup rangemaster. The younger young marines shoot bb guns with gusto and with pride remember both boys and girls and are respectful and usually well trained in courtesy similar to military. It is a great program if you want "young marines". Boy scouts on the other hand is designed to be a broader program just for boys til venturing and a wide variety of merit badges to attempt to find at an early age where a boy's intrest and inclination lie. If you have a "young marine" seek them out and sign him up! If you have the average boy let him try and let him learn in a more user friendly environment.

[Gonzo1]

Baden,

I agree, the troop that marches everywhere looks dorky. Let's face it, they're dorks.

 

On the other hand, when we marched in parades, we looked OK, we didn't win any prizes, we started atopped together, Nothing looks worse than a gaggle going from one place to another. Scouts are scouts, not Young Marines or Sea Cadets (not Sea Scouts), or JROTC.

 

Having been former enlisted, I rather like marching, but I'm not teaching it to the scouts.

 

Boy lead is the way to be!

[Hunt]

I think some of us have encountered adult Scout leaders who were former military who focused too much on lines of authority--with the adults at the top of the organizational chart. I think this can manifest itself in things like a lot of adult-imposed uniform inspections, tough BORs that a significant number of Scouts "fail," etc. But these attitudes aren't limited to former military, and there are plenty of former military who don't have this attitude.

[GernBlansten]

Our SM is a retired Navy attack sub commander. Everything he does personally has the stereotypical military precision and rigor one would expect from an officer and gentleman. However, when he's working with the scouts, I've never met a more patient, forgiving man. He definitely does not want our troop to be too militaristic. Great SM for the boys and not a bad role model for us scouters either. Has some great campfire stories from the cold war too.

[packsaddle]

Sometimes I am thankful just to have them standing relatively still and quiet. Straight lines would be nice but sometimes it is asking too much. On the other hand, if the boys WANT to learn close-order drill.....

 

To me it seems the problem is to find a balance between order and disorder. Too much in either direction is counterproductive. I was a civilian scientist in the Army and there were many times when I very much appreciated the discipline and order offered by the chain of command and well-defined missions. I often miss it here in academia.

At the same time there was a culture clash because scientific investigation doesn't necessarily conform to that structure and this sometimes led to frustration and tension on both sides. To their credit, the brass usually tried to make reasonable accommodations. They usually found a good balance.

 

Boys are children and even when they are expressing a rebelious nature, they need some structure imposed from the outside. The trick is to facilitate that structure while allowing some freedom for all the fun and the personal growth. I think that as long as we are aware of the conflicting needs and interests, we can adjust along the way to maintain that balance.

 

[Nike]

Our troop has tons o'active duty and retired types as leaders and volunteers. They don't try to impose military precision or order on the boys as this is a boy run troop and the boys know it, won't let the adults forget it. What is great about these guys and gals is that they are used to pulling teens into adulthood. They also know how the mind of a kid/young adult works, whereas this is my first enocunter with teens since I was one. And frankly, I can give the very same advice to my son as the retired SF colonel, but he's got the credibility whereas I am just a mom.

[Stosh]

A little regimentation/disciple goes a long way to build a esprit-de-corps. While there are troops out there trying to get boys to wear their uniform, we have boys that have paid extra to make sure they have the necessitites of uniformity. They function and show due respect through the salute, and recognize rank/office as necessary without having to be hounded. The leadership skills of the military compliment the process. They may be viewed as dorks, but for the most part, their teamwork/leadership confidence, they pretty much don't care what others think.

 

My venture crew, of course is another situation. It's a Civil War reenactment crew and military protocol and regimentation is constantly adhered to at all times. They are impeccable with the drill and are better that most of their adult peers.

 

Leadership must be aware of the fine balance between what's enough to promote confidence and what is over-the-top.