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packsaddle

Gotta love him!

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Well, I can agree with some of my Scout brothers/sisters, but not all.

Check the other thread about voting...

 

SRBeaver: Thank you.

 

I spent the best part of a week a couple summers ago teaching Cubs how to use a compass. (aside: recent NOVA PBS program about the earths magnetic field shifting.Gotta see that one again...) It occurs to me that along with a magnetic compass, we are charged with training our boys how to use their MORAL compass. Do we really want to have our country known for its great ability to enact REVENGE on captured soldiers/spies/alleged terrorists/convicted terrrorists/anti(pick a subject) folks ?

And that is what torture ultimately is, not just to "extract" information, but to affect revenge for acts of our enemy, real or imagined. Read 1984 . And what evidence do we have that torture really reliably gains useful, real, intel? Is it worth our national reputation?

Yes, we have enemies. Yes some around the world hate us (pick a reason). Do we really 'convince' them of our superior political/economic system by putting electrodes to their gonads?

 

Read the thread about the Cub and the knife. What was that boy hoping to accomplish by his act? And why would the CM want to dissuade him from that choice of action? Perhaps the Abu Gharaib staff would like such a man in 10 years...

 

I have a friend who works in the prison system, helping the inmates see a different way of living... She tells me that the biggest change comes not just when the inmate "gets religion", which ever one it is, but when the inmate sees the other fellow as HIMSELF. The Golden Rule we call it. It goes by other names in other faith and ethical traditions.

 

I remember an interview by Jack Paar of Dick Gregory. Gregory has always espoused simple non-violence, but as young as I was at the time, I was deeply impressed by Gregory's argument and sincerity. One can not teach peace with violence. "The beatings will continue until morale improves" reads the poster on the boss's wall. Only half tongue in cheek.

 

OOps. Gotta get to work. The bank says I don't yet own my house all by myself. Thank you for this chance to pray out loud.

 

Romans 12:19-23

 

YiS

 

 

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Hey Brent, I don't know about the cats but I know if I had that choice, Mr. Snowy would be history. Of course, heh, heh, after a few more days, we'd just have to see, heh, heh. Maybe the cats would take their turn on the dinner plate a little before you, though. ;)

 

SSScout, I agree. Sometimes when I listen to some supporters of torture who profess to be Christian, I have this feeling of deja vu, or hypocrisy Ted Haggard style.

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"I am however for extracting information that will save Americans lives. I think it should be OK to tinker with the clock, make some one think it's a different time of day. Play loud Barry Manilow music, rock music, light or sound deprivation, etc. Even scare tactics with dogs. I'm opposed to turning the dogs loose on the enemy. Even the waterboard should be allowed."

 

So you're OK with this as an international standard--meaning it would be OK for enemy countries to do this to U.S. soldiers in wartime?

I'm really at my wit's end trying to figure out how anybody who is a member of the party that supposedly is defending Christian moral values can put up with this for one second.

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Brent,

 

Of course any president, current or future, can trust any of the intelligence agencies to advise him. That is their job and they did it. Sadly, ALL the data was not considered or passed on to other leaders. The trouble comes when you have an administration with a preconceived notion that cherry picks the information to support that notion. That same cherry picked info is then supplied to those whose support you are seeking. Even Colin Powell will confirm this for you.

 

War with Iraq was a goal of many of Bush's top people long before Bush was elected and Clinton was still President. You can read their letter to Clinton here:

 

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

 

9/11 gave them the momentum they needed to further their agenda.

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SRBeaver writes: "Sadly, ALL the data was not considered or passed on to other leaders. The trouble comes when you have an administration with a preconceived notion that cherry picks the information to support that notion."

Do you really believe those Democrat talking points? What do you think is the purpose of the US Senate Committee on Intelligence? Here, I will make it easy for you:

 

JURISDICTION

Created pursuant to S.Res. 400, 94th Congress: to oversee and make continuing studies of the intelligence activities and programs of the United States Government, and to submit to the Senate appropriate proposals for legislation and report to the Senate concerning such intelligence activities and programs. In carrying out this purpose, the Select Committee on Intelligence shall make every effort to assure that the appropriate departments and agencies of the United States provide informed and timely intelligence necessary for the executive and legislative branches to make sound decisions affecting the security and vital interests of the Nation. It is further the purpose of this resolution to provide vigilant legislative oversight over the intelligence activities of the United States to assure that such activities are in conformity with the Constitution and laws of the United States.

 

Now, either someone dropped the ball, or they aren't telling the truth.

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Barry Manilow music at any volume should be added to the G2SS as a banned activity.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

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"...or they aren't telling the truth"

On this I agree. If I had a way to detect everyone who is a liar in all branches of government, I cannot predict how many would be found. However, I'm not optimistic that many of our leaders tell the truth even most of the time. Sadly, we elected them. THEY represent us. As someone (Gern, I think) said before, we tend to get the government we deserve.

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Hunt,

Yes I put up with it, I'm actually glad we do it. here's how. We're on the battlefield, capture someone of interest who we believe has actual, credible information. If we then put that guy in a cell, turn off the lights and let him wait. Bring him a breakfast for example. Wait an our and bring him lunch. Tell him that 5 hours passed. Wait about 20 hours and bring him dinner. Tell him that 5 hours passed. Use bright lights, loud music, sensory overload or deprivation. I'm OK with that. Why? BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KILL HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND WE DIDN'T CHOP OFF HIS HEAD. The guy is still alive. At some point, he'll be able to practice his religion, customs, etc. He gets to live. One way we get beat this "torture" thing is to kill them all on the battlefield, you know, take no prisoners.

 

Would that be better?

 

G

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OK, still waiting to hear about all this torture we are doing. Some of you are convinced Bush is lying when he says we don't torture - OK, back it up. Let's see the evidence that brought you to that conclusion. Again, we aren't talking Abu Ghraib - we are talking today. Give me the details, precise descriptions.

 

Here is a little perspective for you. We treat the terrorists who are committed to killing us much, much better than the UN "Peacekeepers" treat the women and children in the Congo they are supposed to be helping. And we are the bad guys?

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More soberly,

 

The irony of your request is excruciating. Go back and re-read the link at the top of the thread. Your republican leaders in the White House are trying to make it ILLEGAL to provide the details you request. If I had the information you request, and if I gave it to you, they would have me arrested.

 

{shiver}

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"If I had the information you request..."

 

Let me repeat that, for emphasis:

 

"If I had the information you request..."

 

So, you are admitting that you don't have any information to support your conclusion that we are conducting torture. The truth is, you and the others are only basing your charges on your blinding hate of President Bush. Think about that, if only for just a minute.

 

SRBeaver, do you really want to compare us to the Khmer Rouge and their torture and killings? Do you know what you are talking about, or are you just repeating more Democrat talking points? How many terrorists have we killed with pick axes and machetes? How many have we hanged? How many people did the Khmer Rouge kill? For you to think we are equal, you must really hate your country.

What about the Nazis? Killing off millions of Jews. Performing all kinds of insane surgeries. Starving and working the Jews to death. You really see your country, your government in the same light? Remember, you are talking about our military, our intelligence officers - not Bush. They are the individuals handling the prisoners. I can't imagine saying anything like that about my country unless I had absolute proof it was happening.

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Brent,

 

I won't dignify your question with a response because it would be pointless. Your mind is closed to rational thought on political subject matter.

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SR540,

If you (or any of you) think that the United States of America is such an evil country for extracting information from prisoners is so wrong, what do you expect us to do?

 

We're not beating them,

we're not chopping off their heads,

we don't starve them

we don't gas them

we don't mutilate them

we don't drag them through town

We do feed them according to their religion and culture

we allow them to worship

we allow them to take showers, wear clean clothes,

 

So a few people get embarrassed, they don't know what time of day it is. They get their meal schedule messed up, ..... TOO BAD!

 

do you get it?

 

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