What is an Atheist????

[evmori 11]

To keep the other thread clean of what will probably happen here, What is an atheist? Merlyn believes an atheist is whatever fits his current cause. I feel an atheist doesn't believe in a higher power. How about the rest?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

No Ed, my definition doesn't change. An atheist is not a theist. Since a theist is someone who believes in one or more gods, an atheist is someone who does not fit this definition, i.e. they don't believe in gods.

 

As far as the BSA membership requirements go, it means whatever they mean by it, if they use the term "atheist". If they mean "supreme being", yet they accept a rock or a stream as an acceptable god, I'd say their definitions don't make a lot of sense. And if people have to ask in an unofficial scouting forum what the requirements mean, it doesn't look like the BSA's requirements are terribly clear.

[GernBlansten 10]

Color me dense, but I find no distinction between Ed's and Merlyn's definitions. What is even more unsettling, is I think Ed and Merlyn agree but don't recognize it due to their mutual feelings about each other.

[evmori 11]

Ya know Gern, you are correct. Amazing! Merlyn agrees with me! I can learn!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle 753]

Heh, heh. My uncle liked to tell the story of his duties after WW2. He was one of the chief negotiators (he had stars on his shoulder) with the Russians and it was a very frustrating experience. After one particularly unproductive meeting, he told his Russian counterpart, "We can at least agree that we disagree".

The Russian slammed his fist on the table and shouted, "We do NOT disagree!" My uncle would just crack up in laughter every time he told this story. I smile every time I think about it, I can hear his voice telling it.

So Ed and Merlyn have a special relationship. Each of them has his own merits and foibles. I think we should just enjoy the interaction, even if only with horrified fascination.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

People don't seem to have noticed that I wasn't disagreeing with Ed's definition (in fact, I didn't refer to it at all); I was disagreeing with Ed's assertion that my definition of "atheist" changes depending on the argument.

[Trevorum 24]

Ed actually poses a very good question. Popular definitions of who is an atheist are all over the map.

 

1. Some people say an atheist is anyone who does not believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God named Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah. That definition is pretty restrictive (but may be current with some evangelicals): Hindus, Native Americans, and Wiccans would be atheist.

 

2. Some people say an atheist is anyone who does not believe in a supreme power or supreme being. This seems to be Ed's take and seems to be implied in the DRP. That would mean that Buddhists and many UUs are atheist.

 

3. Some people say an atheist is anyone who affirms the non-existence of a controlling god or gods. Note this is subtly different than #2. (Saying "I don't believe in god" is different than saying "No god exists")

 

4. Some people say that an atheist includes those who simply aren't sure about the existence of a god or gods. This would include agnostics and (may?) be Merlyn's usage and would seem to be indicated by the BSA legal website (but not the DRP).

 

 

(And, as Merlyn astutely points out, BSA is remarkably murky when it comes to defining exactly what they mean by a concept that is so vitally important to membership criteria. For a long while, many in BSA assumed definition #1. Then we realized we couldn't/shouldn't kick out all those fine Buddhists and Hindus. Oops, but that let the door open for those pesky UUs and pagans. And now we have to deal with this slippery slope of uncertain Agnostics. What to do, What to do...?)

 

[GernBlansten 10]

I still don't understand why Buddhists are still granted membership in BSA.

The DRP is pretty clear that Buddhists cannot be the best citizens.

Are they the elephant in the room?

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

It looks like the Buddhists will be bringing this up; someone in rec.scouting.issues actually wrote and asked them:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting.issues/msg/15ed2e62c872ccad?

 

Here's part:

 

I was wondering if you could help me with a bit of research. I'm a

Scouter from the UK and have been recently drawn into a debate on the

Internet about Buddhists in Scouting. Here in the UK the Scout

Association allows alternative wording for the Scout Promise (such as

"duty to my Dharma") so that it's accessible to all religions. However,

I've been informed that the BSA doesn't make any similar accommodation

by offering alternative phrasing for their Scout Oath, and that all

members must promise "duty to God".

 

I know that Buddhism has many different branches around the world and

that some of these branches recognise a variety of gods. My partner is

from Taiwan and I've seen the many wonderful statues in the temples

during my time living there! However, I used to have a friend who, as a

Buddhist, didn't believe in *any* God, gods or deities. How do such

strictly non-theist Buddhists cope with the BSA's "duty to God" phrase?

Are some Buddhists unable to join because of the use of the word "God",

and have there been any formal or informal representations to the BSA

or the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting about this?

 

I would be grateful for any questions answered and for any help given.

 

====================================

 

From: Victor Iwamura

To: Graham Holland

 

You bring up an interesting topic. The BSA in the USA is predominantly

a Christian organization and have strong support by them. As Buddhists

in the BSA, we have told our Scouts that they may substitute or be

silent when it comes to saying "under God". We are trying to influence

the powers that be here but it is a difficult struggle. I am going to

the BSA meeting in October and will mention to them what you do.

 

Victor Iwamura, Chair

National Buddhist Committee on Scouting

 

[Trevorum 24]

In all honesty, I think the issue gets down to BP's notion of "Reverence" and not necessarily "God"

 

Buddhists have been members of BSA for a long, long time. Probably from the very start, with troops in San Francisco, Seattle, Honolulu, and other similar places. No one has ever wanted to kick out these Americans, for they are clearly reverent. (Same with Hindus).

 

However, I believe a problem started to grow sometime back in the 1960s when active atheism (of the M.O'Hair flavor) became increasingly visable in America. These people were not reverent (in the sense that BSA wanted to teach young people) and BSA decided that they would not qualify for membership. Active atheists - meaning people who were not reverent to anything - would be excluded.

 

The problem came in the details. How to implement this decision? No one ever meant to exclude Buddhists with the wording of the DRP, but it was (probably) written by middle-class, white Christians (perhaps a Jew or two) who did not have a lot of background in religious diversity. However, the wording of the DRP has since been used (mistakenly, from BP's perspective) to try to exclude other reverent persons such as Wiccans, UUs, and nontheists.

 

So, today we have, as Gern says, a Buddhist elephant in the room. Everyone knows they do not accept the DRP, but no one wants to cause a stink. I believe that if someone would bring suit against BSA on this issue, BSA would have to re-word the DRP to (properly) emphasize reverence rahther than God, OR allow local option with respect to religion and matters of faith.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Merlyn_LeRoy 72]

A lawsuit wouldn't make any difference; the BSA can kick out Buddhists today if they want to (or Jews, or any other group). They're a private organization.

[Trevorum 24]

Yes, you are correct. But they don't want to. And it would be terribly embarrassing to have this blatant inconsistency exposed. I think raising the issue would force BSA to confront, and hopefully, rectify it.

 

 

[SSScout 1615]

Do we have any admitted Shintoist Scouts?

 

Zoroastrians?

 

Jainists?

 

Sikhs?

 

My goo'ness...

[packsaddle 753]

BSA used to, at least, recognize the Zoroastrian religious award. Not sure about the others. Trevorum has the best take on this. BSA evidently wrote the DRP without thinking clearly about the implications outside the so-called Judeo-Christian 'tradition'. Now, it seems, they are too stubborn (arrogant?) to admit they may have been in error. Remind you anyone?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

A quick trip to the PRAY website shows there are awards for the following, Buddhist, Hindu, Meher Baba, and

Zoroastrian. All with distinctly non-Judeo Christian/God of the bible foundations.

 

(I took B'Hai out, OGE)

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)