Course reversal in Philly?

[Bob White]

Still waiting Questioning.

 

I asked that you site specific evidence that the values of scouting have changed. I asked that you reference a Boy Scout handbook of the past and todays Boy Scout handbook and show us where the BSA has altered the values we teach scouts today.

 

As an example of how this works I'll go first using your own examples.

 

 

BSA Handbook for Boys, Copyright 1948

Trustworthy

A Scouts honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating, or by not doing exactly a specific task, when trusted on his honor, he may be directed to hand over his Scout Badge.

 

The Boy Scout Handbook, Copyright 1998

Trustworthy

A scout tells the truth, He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.

A reputation for being trustworthy is important to you know and in the years to come....

 

Now tell me what that has to do with a scoutmaster having a discussion of a sexual topic with someone elses child? Because I don't see that supported here.

 

Wait a minute!! Here it is page 500 of the Scoutmaster's Handbook.

It says that a scoutmaster should not undertake to teach scouts sexual behavior in a formalized manner, that scouts should learn about sex from their parents, spiritual leader or physician, that a SM should answer direct questions honestly but stay within their knowledge and comfort, and to direct the scout to his parents, spritual leader or physician as is appropriate.

 

 

Oops, my mistake!! that was from the 1959 Scoutmaster's Handbook.

 

The current SM handbook says on page 132 that a scoutmaster should not undertake to teach scouts sexual behavior in a formalized manner, that scouts should learn about sex from their parents, spiritual leader or physician, that a SM should answer direct questions honestly but stay within their knowledge and comfort, and to direct the scout to his parents, guardians, spritual leader, or physician as is appropriate.

 

Wait a minute! That's the same thing! Nothing on that topic has changed in 43 years???

 

Okay Questioning your turn. I hope you have better luck than I did.

 

 

Show me between two scout handbooks over the last 92 years where the program has changed.

 

By the way I would steer clear of "A Scout is Clean" it will not help your argument.

 

Your friend in scouting,

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[questioning]

The book has not changed, only the teaching.

Morally straight had nothing to do with not bring gay yet mr Shields has quoted it as meaning just that. The differance is not in the book but in the teaching.

 

Now for a scout who comes to a scoutmaster about orientation the SM needs to deal with it not by telling him it is right or wrong but by guiding him to his parents and not kicking him to the curb.

[Bob White]

You are against a Scoutmaster sending a scout to his parents or guardian for guidance?

 

In what possible capacity have you been involved in scouting for 54 years? When if ever did you attend Scout Leader Training? What scouting resource did you ever read in 54 years that made the Scoutmaster an appropriate resource for discussing sexual orientation with a minor?

 

You said the program changed it's values and how we teach them, please show me one single piece of evidence from 92 years of program. Site one physical resource that I can look at to see that this is anything other than your personal opinion or hearsay. A handbook, a training syllabus, one concrete example I can touch.

 

Do not give me a quote from an individual. There have been over 130,000,000 members of the BSA There is bound to be some who misrepresent the program. Show me where the BSA has ever waivered in their values.

 

Bob White

 

[Zahnada]

Bob White,

 

I think you misread this passage of Questioning's last post: "Now for a scout who comes to a scoutmaster about orientation the SM needs to deal with it not by telling him it is right or wrong but by guiding him to his parents and not kicking him to the curb."

 

I'm very tired right now, so it's possible that I'm the one misreading it. However, I interpret this to say that the Scoutmaster should help the scout discuss this issue with his parents. The problem with the BSA policy is that it gives people a dehumanizing view of homosexuality. The boy is then abandoned or kicked "to the curb" instead of being helped in dealing with this issue.

 

As for the change in values, an argument can definitely be made that values have changed if you believe that homosexuality is something a person can be born with. I personally feel this is often (but not always) the case. The simple truth is that when a boy realizes (or more accurately "fears") that he's gay, he'll do all sorts of things to change. He may date women he feels no affection towards or maybe isolate himself from society. Sometimes, a boy may feel the best solution is suicide.

 

Being gay is a difficult life. Few people choose it willingly and many try to change or convince themselves they are not gay. With so much effort, I don't believe it's a choice.

 

However, a person can probably be socialized to be gay. I'm sure there are a number of factors that influence a person's sexuality. But if these factors (ie. lack of stong male influence in life, etc.) take place in youth without the boy's choice, then how can be blame him for the result.

 

If homosexuality is something you're born with, then to turn away a gay boy would be equivalent to BSA turning away a boy who's born handicapped. If it's something socialized, then it's similar to BSA turning away a boy who fell in a swimming pool when young and became handicapped that way. (sorry to compare sexuality with birth defects or disabilities. I hope you see the point I'm trying to make)

 

In any case, the existence of an actual written rule that prohibits one group of boys based on circumstances they can't control, is probably a difference in the communicated values. I would call it discrimination, but I know we'll get in a battle over word meanings and then the real subject will be lost.

 

I hope you all slept well. I'll be sure to clarify things that don't make sense when I write in my sleep deprived state. Just ask away.

[Bob White]

Zahnada,

Questioning says that over his 54 years of experience that he has seen the values of scouting change. I'm saying "prove it". The values of scouting are in the scout handbook and have been for 92 years. Show me the book where the values changed.

 

Questioning says that there used to be acceptance of all members, but he also said he has hid his homosexuality all these years. WHY? If there was ever a time when the BSA would have approved membership of an avowed homosexual then why didn't he step out of his self-imposed closet.

 

If he wants to see "more Gregs" step forward publicly then why doesn't he?

 

This topic is filled with people in opposition to scoutings values telling us that the BSA values have changed and yet most have little or no actual knowledge of the Boy Scouts of America other than what their political action groups tell them to say.

 

I'm asking one simple direct question. If the values we teach have changed over our 92 years then prove it. Site one value in any Handbook where we have altered the moral compass. Show me one passage we teach our scouts where they are taught intolerance to homosexuals.

 

Show me a single line in any Scout Handbook where we say you can be a member of the scouting program no matter what your public behavior is. Show me where it says you do not have to accept the values of the Oath and Law in order to be a member.

 

If we have changed our values then give me the year it changed and show me the handbook when it happened. Put some cards on the table or walk away.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

You are right on the money with this one. Scouting values haven't changed!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[SM406]

Nicely stated BW, I agree with you completely.

 

Just a side thought. I find it interesting that if you disagree with the homosexual movement you are intolerant.

 

SM406

 

[Zahnada]

Bob White,

 

I agree with everything you said. BSA's values have not changed during its history. As you said, the lack of evidence to the contrary only serves as reinforcement of the truth. I fully believe that if a scout were to publicly come out of the closet in the past, they would receive the same reception as they do today. In fact, they would probably be treated much worse than scouts today. So therefore, BSA is not completely intolerant.

 

I would like to add two side-notes to what I've said.

 

1. The fact that there's a written "law" and consequences for homosexuals should be counted as a massive change in policy if not in values. It takes control completely from the unit or charter to decide for themselves on the issue which is what I believe people did for the other 90 years of scouting. The effects of a written policy cannot be overlooked. It sends a message to the scouts about homosexuality. Since these boys will undoubtedly encounter gays throughout their lives, this negative message may produce very negative response. Luckily sexuality is left off the troop-meeting agenda, but it's an issue that's always there. Not a change in values, but it could easily become one for individuals or entire troops.

 

2. Just because something hasn't changed does not make it right. The world is constantly changing and we as humans should be changing with it. (I know the counter-argument will be "Just because society changes, does not make the change right.") Just think about what I'm saying for a moment.

[MarkNoel]

Bob White writes:

> Because, you said that "The opinion seems to be that all the gays in scouting should stay in the closet and it is not

> an opinion. It is the POLICY of the BSA.

 

Just as a minor point, I did not say that. The quote above came from a previous posting by Questioning.

 

But given the shaky nature of the BSA's "policy" -- which they have been loath to put into writing or to promulgate in any way, it seems that the word "opinion" is still the right word to use.

 

After all, if the "policy" were so clear, then why would there be so much misunderstandings in, say, Philadelphia?

 

(And before I hear the inevitable chorus of media distortion, it should probably be pointed out that the misunderstanding I'm referring to were those born of face-to-face meetings with local sponsors and funding agencies BEFORE the media ever got wind of it.)

 

 

YiS,

-Mark

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Before I respond Zahnada, you need to make a decision. In point 1 of your post you say we have changed, in point 2 you say we have not.

 

pick one. Do you think the BSA has changed their values over the year or do you believe thay have stayed the same and the world has changed around them.

 

Which is it because it can't be both.

 

Bob White

 

PS, Questioning where did you go? We are waiting for that one sliver of evidence that supports that the values have changed during your 50 plus years in scouting.

 

[MarkNoel]

SM406 writes:

 

> Just a side thought. I find it interesting that if you disagree with the homosexual movement you are intolerant.

 

I guess that depends on what you understand the "homosexual movement" to be about. If you see it as an attempt to change everyone's closely held beliefs about such issues, then I can see where you're coming from.

 

But you don't have to change your own personal beliefs in order to allow someone else to hold beliefs that differ from yours... that's the cornerstone of our democracy and our freedoms.

 

To the extent that you disagree with the premise that our democracy should be tolerant of and make a place for people who are different from you in some way (religious belief, etc.), then it shouldn't really come as any surprise that some people choose to use the adjective "intolerant."

 

YiS,

-Mark

 

[bt01]

Local chartering organizations are responsible for the selection and approval of adult volunteers and they come from all walks of life. ???

 

Merlyn, not all chartering organizations accept gays. There are plenty packs, troops and crews that are sponsored the RC church. They do not accept gays. Not all religions aspect the gay life style.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

btps writes:

Local chartering organizations are responsible for the selection and approval of adult volunteers and they come from all walks of life. ???

 

Merlyn, not all chartering organizations accept gays. There are plenty packs, troops and crews that are sponsored the RC church. They do not accept gays. Not all religions aspect the gay life style.

 

I didn't say the previous sentence, Bob White did. I pointed out that "all walks of life" is not accurate, as the BSA excludes some people from the outset.

[bt01]

Merlyn,

all walks of life What does that mean to you???

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"All walks of life" would include gays and atheists, of course.