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Calif. Judges Possibly Banned from Scouting Activity


SR540Beaver

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OK, Kwc, let's get this straight. (Maybe this should be in the "How well do you remember the 60's and 70's" forum, if there was one.)

 

The little girl in the big chair, by Lily Tomlin (on Laugh In) was "Edith Ann." Lily Tomlin's other major character that I remember was Ernestine, the telephone switchboard operator.

 

Gilda Radner had a number of running characters on Saturday Night Live, including both Emily Litella and Rosanne Rosannadanna. They were probably the two main "Weekend Update" characters of hers. Gilda Radner also did "Baba Wawa" (Barbara Walters) and "Lisa Lupner" in that series of sketches with Bill Murray, which I never liked very much. And of course, she was also the assistant to Theodoric of York, Medieval Whatever (Steve Martin), one of the best characters ever.(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

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NJ,

 

Ok. I concede. At 45, I find myself using Google a lot to shore up my memory. My first search turned up an SNL transcript (the link I added) that had Lily Tomlin's name on it. We have an internet filter here at work that does not allow us to go to a lot of sites. Entertainment and sports sites are forbidden. Seems they expect us to work. Regardless, I could not view the link I listed in my post. I did another search and sure enough it was Gilda. And yes, the character I was thinking of was Edith Ann. Looks like I need to find a memory enhancing pill to add to the Centrum Silver, Viagra, Vioxx and Geritol cocktail. :)

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packsaddle,

 

From your posts, it is obvious that you feel that the BSA is the "bad guy" here. However, it appears to me that the Unitarian Universalists forced BSA's hand. They basically told the BSA that they were going to use the Scout award associated with their religion to teach their boys to accept homosexuality as natural. This directly contradicts the values that the BSA endorses. The BSA was very patient up to a point.

 

Eventually, the BSA presented an ultimatum to the UUA - Stop manipulating the awards program for your own selfish political purposes. The UUA refused to change their proposed program. They wanted the BSA to capitulate. The UUA insisted on presenting literature associated with the Scouting award, which was contrary to BSA's values. It is sad (as you've noted), but it was the UUA that made this happen, not the BSA.

 

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Rooster,

Read the material that KWC57 identified carefully. I quote from BSA, "Although religious emblems are not Scouting awards, the Boy Scouts of America encourages its members to participate in religious emblem programs..."

1. It is not a scouting award

2. BSA made a demand and the UUA did modify their literature to meet BSA demands.

3. BSA rescinded their action and then reinstated it because UUA was still exercising their 1st amendment right but in a manner not associated with the award.

BSA elsewhere states, "Scouting supports the spiritual view of life that underlies the teaching of all denominations and faiths." (a lie) and, "Scouting encourages boys and leaders, according to their own convictions, to participate in the program of their church, temple, synagogue, mosque, or other religious organization. Scouts are expected to fulfill their religious obligations and respect the beliefs of others." that is, unless those 'others' disagree.

BSA didn't HAVE to do anything, UUA bent over backwards to accomodate them, short of recanting their beliefs. BSA chose to take the action anyway. Bernardo Gui would be proud. I stand by what I said. Hypocritical, un-American, and I should add, un-Scoutlike.

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Actually, the Religious Emblem is not a BSA award. It is an award recognized by the BSA and is allowed to be worn on the uniform by the BSA.

 

Here is information from the PRAY organization that runs the program:

 

Programs of Religious Activities with Youth (P.R.A.Y.) is a not-for-profit organization whose national board of directors includes representatives from Protestant and Independent Christian Churches, Boy Scouts of America, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A., and Camp Fire Boys and Girls. P.R.A.Y.'s mission statement is to "actively promote relationships between churches and youth-serving agencies in order to encourage the Christian spiritual growth of children, youth and families." Everything that the P.R.A.Y. national board does is centered on the two parts of this mission statement: collaborations between churches and agencies, and the God and Country program.

 

Their site is www.praypub.org(This message has been edited by kwc57)

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Sorry...I stand corrected (in regards to it being a "Scouting" award). However, it seems to me that the award has very strong ties to the BSA. Are the boys encouraged to wear this award on anything other than a Scout uniform? Can anyone other than a Scout or Scouter participate in the P.R.A.Y. program? Wasn't P.R.A.Y. conceived as an add-on program for Scouts? Whether or not it is the BSA or the "church" that actually awards the medal is not as significant as who is most closely associated with the award. Would there be such an award if the BSA did not exist? As far as the UUA bending over backwards, if that were the case, why do they insist on providing supplementary material labeling the BSA's stance as homophobic?(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

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The boys are ALLOWED to wear it on anything they like, including their Sunday go-to-meeting clothes. Any boy (or girl, for that matter) can earn the religious award outside of scouting (they don't have to be a scout). It would exist if there was no BSA. It is a major award. When I earned it, after my Eagle, I was told that it was comparable to Eagle in difficulty and prestige. Considering the uncountable hours and years it took me, I would tend to agree.

The UUA exercises their right to speak because they are true to their beliefs and because, importantly, BSA IS homophobic (they would just like to stay in the closet about it).

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The whole thing with the Unitarians is one of the ways the BSA violates its own declaration of religious principles. That declaration says that the BSA is "non-denominational" in its approach to religion. It is not. If your denomination believes gays have the same rights as everybody else, and should not be excluded, and your denomination says so, you are penalized by not having your award approved for wear on the BSA uniform. That is not non-denominational. One type of religious belief is being favored over another.

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Absolutely right, NJ! I now answer the question I have occasionally heard from ScoutParent, "why don't we leave and create our own organization?"

Years ago when I was cubmaster, the last time we allowed a 'professional scouter' to speak, that same night my pack experienced a significant decline in family membership. They didn't even want to discuss it for a couple of years. Once they did my conclusion was, families join scouting for reasons other than fear or hate toward homosexuals and atheists...they further don't much enjoy rants about it either. Word of that speech filtered into the community like the hyphae of a fungal disease. I wonder if we will ever recover, it has become legendary. I sought help from BSA for years to try to help to no avail.

 

I continue to work with the boys because I have concluded that the spirit of scouting resides primarily with the volunteer side, not the professional side. I consider the volunteer side to be the repository of the true spirit, the professional side is tainted by big organization and big money lust, or worse. On reflection, outside the camps and some truly shoddy clerical tasks, I am not sure what those guys do. We can't trust their records (some of our boys routinely disappear) and often we have to clarify advancement status for THEM. I have never seen an organization that so desperately wanted to be like the military, and failed so miserably at it. Outside funding and numbers, I currently doubt BSA cares about much else. Which leaves those of us who remember...what it was like, and what it could be for the boys today. To me, that is the primary motivation. And that is why, ScoutParent, I stick with it. I don't know what dark thing it is that now holds BSA but I can at least keep it from the boys I know and maybe leave them with some memories similar to mine.

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Packsaddle and NJ,

 

The boys are ALLOWED to wear it on anything they like, including their Sunday go-to-meeting clothes.

 

I don't doubt it. However, if there was a magical map where one could push a button and view every child wearing the religious award, I'd be willing to give a dollar to your favorite charity for every child who was wearing his award on something other than a Scout uniform. On the other hand, I doubt I could afford the inverse of that bet.

 

Any boy (or girl, for that matter) can earn the religious award outside of scouting (they don't have to be a scout).

 

Again, I don't doubt it. However, outside of Scouting, how many people know or participate in the P.R.A.Y. program? While I don't have the statistics, I'm confidant the Scouts, and in particular Boy Scouts (as opposed to Cub Scouts or Girl Scouts), comprise the vast majority of their participants.

 

It would exist if there was no BSA.

 

Sure it would existJust like soccer would exist if the Europeans and the Latin Americans dropped out of the World Cup. There would be folks interested and participating, but to what degree?

 

It is a major award.

 

Did anyone say any differently?

 

The UUA exercises their right to speak because they are true to their beliefs and because, importantly, BSA IS homophobic (they would just like to stay in the closet about it).

 

Well, that is their right. However, it is also the BSA's right to embrace and maintain its values. You and NJ speak, as if its impossible to view homosexuality as being inherently wrong, unless one basis that belief on a religious tenant. There many folks, including myself, that believe nature and common sense screams out its perversity. Apparently, the BSA has taken same position. Yes - I have a strong faith, which condemns homosexuality as a sin. Yet, I came to the conclusion that it was wrong long before I became serious about studying the precepts of my religion. I'm certain that the BSA and many others feel the same way. As for "fearing" homosexuality or homosexuals (i.e. the accusation of being "homophobic"), this is simply a ploy by those that embrace homosexuality to taint and discredit those that disagree with them. I love peopleall people, including the homosexual. I can feel empathy and pain for many different folks. Regardless, this fact does not make homosexuality more acceptable.

 

The whole thing with the Unitarians is one of the ways the BSA violates its own declaration of religious principles. That declaration says that the BSA is "non-denominational" in its approach to religion. It is not. If your denomination believes gays have the same rights as everybody else, and should not be excluded, and your denomination says so, you are penalized by not having your award approved for wear on the BSA uniform. That is not non-denominational. One type of religious belief is being favored over another.

 

It is entirely possible that one can embrace values without endorsing a specific religion or group of religions. Many folks believe that lying is wrong, even atheists. I'd be willing to bet that some atheists even believe that homosexuality is wrong. The point being, the BSA can claim values that are unique to them and/or they can share some values that others also embrace. It is wrong to presume that they hold a value merely because certain faiths do as well. The BSA can embrace and maintain values that are separate from religious teaching. The fact that they agree is not proof that they believe in the same God. How can you claim otherwise? If this was so, then you are also implying that atheists have no values. Or, are you implying that they are lairs...that they really do believe in a faith and just won't admit it? Let's be consistent here.

 

Having said the above, this is what P.R.A.Y. says about their award and Scouting -

 

"The religious emblems programs provide opportunities for young people to reinforce and internalize the values they have learned in Scouting and to relate them to their faith."

 

In short, the religious awards program should be consistent with the values associated with Scouting. It is the BSA's right to insist that this theme be present. It is their uniform. If the religious award offered by the UUA is inconsistent with Scouting's values, the BSA is wise not to allow the award to be worn on its uniform.

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Collateral damage.

Rooster we are simply going to disagree on this. You would defend BSA over anything. If I granted all your points for the sake of argument, it would still leave my primary objection...BSA, in a fervor that you evidently understand fully, chose an act to the detriment of the youth. No hand was forced.

The KKK, in their fervor to be true to their principles, bombed churches - nevermind the unfortunate children that got in the way. Their toadies, somewhere, probably still defend them.

 

I take some solace, though, in knowing that for at least a couple of pages here, we've diverted you from your preoccupation with, you know, the 'b' word.

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"Rooster we are simply going to disagree on this. You would defend BSA over anything."

 

So, Rooster, Congrats, you have just been accused of morphing into Bob White, how does that make you feel?

 

NJ, if you can remember the 60's, obviously you didnt do them right...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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Rooster,

 

I'm going to be careful here and restate my opinion so there is no question, I personally agree with the BSA's ban on homosexuals. Having said that, I think the BSA has dropped the ball in the case of the Religious Emblem award from the UUA. If you'll recall in the recent case of the Lambert kid in Washington who was drummed out for being an atheiest, the line from BSA was that he simply needed to believe in a power greater than himself....even Mother Nature would do. BSA didn't care which religion, philosophy, personally held belief system, superstition, denomination or religion you came from. You simply had to acknowledge a superior being even if it was a tree or rock. Under this policy, you can even be a Raelian and believe that aliens created life on Earth thru genetic engineering and still be a Scout.

 

If you'll spend some time at the UUA website and read their principles, I think that while you may not agree with their interpretation or doctrine, you'll find that their principles are not off the wall and don't even mention homosexuality beyond a statement saying that they do not discriminate based on race, color, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.

 

Their PRAY program evidently did contain material concerning gays at one time. The BSA complained. They removed it. The BSA reinstated it and then decided to not recognize the award again.

 

The BSA claims to let the family and church indoctrinate children in their chosen faith and the BSA's role is to be non-sectarian in their role, but to reinforce the values learned in their faith with scouting values.

 

There are even non-Christian (Jewish, Islam, etc.) religious emblem awards available to scouts. The BSA claims not to care what your religion is, just that you have something resembling a religion.

 

In the case of the UUA, they have made a judgement that it is a religion they won't recognize. You can worship a tree or mother nature, but you can't be recognized if you belong to UUA.

 

I wonder, if a boy belongs to a UUA church, then does the BSA believe he can fulfill his Duty to God requirements?

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kwc57: Under this policy, you can even be a Raelian and believe that aliens created life on Earth thru genetic engineering and still be a Scout.

 

That's actually an interesting question; the Raelians believe aliens created humans, but they are also an explicitly atheist religion:

 

http://www.rael.org/int/english/philosophy/summary/body_summary.html

...

Following the extra-terrestrial's instructions, Rael established the Raelian Movement, an international organization to bring together anyone who wishes to help.

 

It is an atheist, non-profit, spiritual organisation; "atheist" because it demystifies the old concept of god, "spiritual" because it links us with our creators and infinity, and "non-profit" because no member gets paid any salary, not even Rael himself.

...

 

Gods in Raelian theology are just powerful aliens.

 

I'm pretty sure some people would think they do qualify, and some would think they don't qualify; I think it's a good example of how the BSA really isn't nonsectarian, and how its religious requirements force scout leaders to judge a member's religion (and whether it meets the BSA's standard), and how the BSA isn't following its own rule about respecting other people's religions.

 

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"it is entirely possible that one can embrace values without endorsing a specific religion or group of religions"

 

it is also possible to endorse values to the judgemental exclusion of a specific religion or group of religions - and THAT's the problem.

 

once you say that a person's religion has a message you don't want to recognize (let alone endorse) and so will disallow from participating in certain aspects of your program... well, frankly, that's more than a little ugly...

 

"The BSA can embrace and maintain values that are

separate from religious teaching." ...and where the two disagree, then the BSA will disallow the religion from participating in certain programs and offering certain awards that all other religions are permitted. (I think it helps to complete the thought to really see the whole picture!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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