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Calif. Judges Possibly Banned from Scouting Activity

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It is pointless to argue what is or is not 'natural'. The problem with the concept of nature is that it means so many different things to different persons and in different contexts. One dictionary definition defines nature as, "the material world and its phenomena". I found this is more than one dictionary. Another defines, "the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing." Good grief! And later, "the external world in its entirety." These are from several different dictionaries, all Webster's. This all-encompassing definition begs the question, 'Then what, if anything, is unnatural?' The facile answer is, 'nothing in the material world and its phenomena'. The tough answer is that the concept 'nature' may not be a useful concept for understanding our world. Another approach is that 'nature' doesn't necessarily address 'spiritual' matters. And we all know how successful we are at agreeing on spiritual matters. Much of what we may never understand about life (but nevertheless argue endlessly) has to with that spiritual side. And playing games with nebulous terms is likely to provide neither clarity nor agreement. As a biologist, my eyes roll when I hear this stuff. Just vote on it.

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Just for future reference:


Simile - a figure of speech in which two unlike things are explicitly compared, as in "she is like a rose." Cf. metaphor.


While I never explicitly said BSA is like a church (at least not in one sentence), it's not as bizarre of a comparison as you have seemingly inferred. Both have a vision. Both have a set of values. Both have membership criteria. Both, as private organizations, are protected entities by the U.S. government. I am merely suggesting that members and potential members would serve themselves and others well by remembering the aforementioned characteristics of such organizations. Fight for what you believe, but the fight is only noble if there is a plausible resolution - one, which would be adopted by the BSA and its members. Otherwise, it's just a head banging exerciseor a pot banging exercise, depending on which side of the fence you happen to be sitting on. As an accused "right wing conspirator" and more recently - an accused tunnel vision supporter of the BSA (or as OGE noted, a.k.a. "Bob White"), I kindly request that you put down your "pot and spoon". On the other hand, if you want to draw a bull's-eye on the side of BSA's headquarters and charge it head long at full speed, there's nothing I can do about it. Enjoy.

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Just so there won't be any confusion...


I don't know how much you know about Bob White and myself, but we have had an occasional disagreement. He's usually interprets every BSA policy by the letter and defends it to death (although he'd never admit it, I think he puts his own spin on some of these interpretations), while I tend to argue what I believe to be the obvious spirit of an intended policy. I have personally accused Bob as being a legalist and/or a Pharisee. OGE was probably laughing at the irony of packsaddle's comment to me when he said, "You would defend BSA over anything." That accusation is usually reserved for Bob Whiteand has been thrown his way many times. I'm fairly confident that he would take that observation as a compliment.


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Rooster, sheesh, didn't you read the last sentence? As for banging, I don't understand WHAT you're blathering about. BSA adopts, members are dictated to. As for noble fights, if someone is willing to stand up for what they honestly believe, as far as I am concerned that is noble even if they are likely not to prevail. I'm here for the boys and while I'm here I'll exercise my voice. If that bothers you or anyone else, that's just too bad. And the "As an accused "right wing conspirator"" thing...what? The whole world is not out to get you. It's not all about YOU.


KWC, Are you saying that OGE was also Bob White? Why would someone bother doing that? Another thing I don't get. What does that have to do with Rooster? Is he also someone else? Merlyn, perhaps? This is confusing.

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I know Bob White, I have chatted with Bob White and I have traded E-Mails with Bob White, I respect Bob White, but I tell you, I am no Bob White and invite Scouter-Terry or whomever to verify I am not Bob White.


And Rooster, I think KWC misunderstood your statement, you don't think Bob White and I are the same person, do you?


When I made the comment


So, Rooster, Congrats, you have just been accused of morphing into Bob White, how does that make you feel?


On this thread on Jan 10, 2003 I was alluding to a point I was trying to make a few months past that Bob's passion for the BSA and your passion for your faith were pretty much on the same level. You (Rooster) would berate Bob for his vigorous defense of the BSA with the same vigor you show on the Gay and related issues. I didnt mean anything coy by it. Just remembering past posts where Bob caught it because he defended a BSA position and now it was you in the same spot.


And I dont hold KWC responsible for his inference, anyone who can confuse Lily Tomlin, Gilda Radner, Emily Litella, and Rosanne Rosanne Adann could have easily misunderstood your passage.


Post Script:

When I first read the OGE=Bob White thing I was writing a response. Reality (my job) kept interrupting me and by the time I posted my reponse, a whole bunch of other posts came in. Thank-you Rooster for knowing what I meant. (I think you knew what I meant)


Anyway, double posting has occurred in the past the most celebrated I know of was that Yaworski and Zorn packte turned out to be the same person.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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Thanks for clarification Rooster and OGE, (by the way OGE, I never REALLY thought you were Bob White). And the assertion that someone in this forum would put their own spin on something...Nooooo! I wouldn't apply the term 'Pharisee' to anyone on the volunteer side. And BSA leadership, well they're really just wannabees when it comes to Phariseedom.

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OK, OK, OK.....I got it....once the background was provided.


I will say that while Bob is rather rigid in his following of procedure, I don't see any spin in it at all. 99% of the time, he presents the facts backed up in black and white with chapter and verse provided. Where there is a gray area in the black and white, he usually has always applied well thought-out, reasoned logic to draw a conclusion of what the gray intends to mean cross-referenced with other policy.


I do have to agree that Rooster is just as Phariseeical in his religious views as Bob can be about the BSA methods. There is nothing wrong in either one being so as long as they respect other's rights to differ from their views. It is when you say something is this way and only this way (as both do) that you start knocking heads with other people. That is why Rooster has had differences with Bob and others have differences with Rooster.

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NoI'm not saying OGE is Bob White.




I think I understood you the first timewe're on the same page.




The "right wing conspirator" comment was tongue in cheek. I was just trying to denote my perspective in a humorous mannerI never thought the world was out to get me.


As for exercising your voice - BANG! BANG! BANG! (could that be the din of cookware)Go for it! No one is stopping you. If you really want a good cause, why don't you try convincing NAMBLA that they should disband? Oh, never mind, you're rightthere are greater evils to contend with in the BSA.

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I do have to agree that Rooster is just as pharisaical in his religious views That is why Rooster has had differences with Bob and others have differences with Rooster.


Ouch! I don't have time to take the bait todayperhaps tomorrow. I will say this, in defense of my "religious views", while I am skeptical of many posters who claim Christianity, but seem to be subscribing to something elseI try not to be pharisaical.


Kwc57 and paddlesack,


Keep it up. At this rate, I'll hit 1,000 posts before the end of January. My new year's resolution is - To leave the Politics and Issues forum, or at least take a real sabbatical, after 1,000 posts. Having said that, I advertised a sabbatical about a year ago and was back in a week or less. It's sadkinda like the smoker who's quit for the seventh or eight time. This stuff is addictive.

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Ok Rooster, I'll back off. I am in agreement with your feelings on what NAMBLA represents. Sadly, if they disbanded it would not eliminate what they represent, only the organization. I see tremendous good in BSA programs and that is why I came to aid a troop in need of leadership. I just think BSA is wrong to try to stifle opposition in a manner that affects the boys and in a way I think does not live up to the principles of our Constitution. I admit that I can put people off sometimes...I refer you to my namesake:


A very long time ago, I showed one of these to my neighbor, a nice elderly gentleman who had lived in our mill village all his life. He announced that it was what they called a 'packsaddle'. I liked the term immediately. From the dictionary of American Regional English: "packsaddle worm" A saddleback caterpillar (one with stinging hairs). (Esp southern Appalachians)


It sort of fits, doesn't it? Peace.


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As you said - peace.


Since you're extending the olive branch, I think you should know - in one of my previous posts, I addressed you as "paddlesack". That was a side-affect of my dyslexia...It wasnt intended to be a snub.


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