Participate in an outdoor flag ceremony

[blw2 433]

that reminds me.... my son's Wolf year, we did a trip to Patriot's Point to sleep aboard the aircraft carrier.

 

On that trip, we did an excursion to Ft Sumter with multiple scout units from the ship

They have 6 flag poles there, and the rangers did an outstanding ceremony/lesson.

At each pole, the boys stood shoulder to shoulder around huge flags, unfurling them while the rangers gave their lessons about all the flags, then they all participated in the raising of the flags.

 

This was done in the morning before the Ft was opened to the public.

 

It was very well done.

 

[Stosh 3452]

It is quite possible for a Cub Scout to put in his entire Cub career at den meetings and pack meetings where the flags are all done indoors and outings without a flag ceremony such as going to visit a museum.  Whereas there are those that would expect some added "intent" to the requirement, it is my belief that sometime during their Cub career that they participate in an outdoor flag ceremony and see a flag go up the flag pole, not just stuck in a stand next to a table.  That in itself is something special for those packs that don't do much outside.  Having the boys do the actual color guard routine?  Where does it say that is expected?  Where in the Cub Scout program is that taught?  It sounds as if all the added hoopla is something that is reserved to be taught in Boy Scouts in the TF requirements.

 

I'm not for looking to short-cut any requirement/expectation spelled out in the BSA advancement and award programs.  I am a stickler in this regard.  I don't make paper Eagles.  But this requirement where the boy needs to be in the color guard is more than stretching it.  The whole den marches up to the flag pole and salutes and says the Pledge while 2 of the boys actually raise the flag?  How is that any different than standing in the audience?  When will the boys find time to run 100 boys in the pack through the ceremony 50 times?  These "added" requirements just don't make any sense.

 

Where was the first time anyone saw and participated in an outdoor flag raising?  It doesn't happen in anyone's family, even if they have a flag pole.  Doesn't happen in school classrooms, the flag is probably not even presented, just hung somewhere.  Doesn't happen in churches.  Doesn't happen on Memorial Day services, it's already half-mast by the time the ceremony starts.  Doesn't happen at sporting events, the flag is already up the pole.

 

So now one can easily understand why it is important for your Cub Scouts to simply stand in the crowd and see something that for the most part he may never have seen before, even if a couple of adults go out and raise the flag.  To me, if one is going to read the "intent" of the requirement, this is where I place my emphasis.  Couple that process with a good bugler (No, I don't expect the Cubs to have a bugler) and you have an impressive ceremony that every Cub should experience by simply standing in the audience and participating.

 

Oh, I forgot to add.  If done correctly, it is customary the members of the color guard do not salute nor say the pledge.

[Eagledad 2777]

From the handbook.

 

2e: Learn how to raise a US flag properly for an outdoor ceremony.

2f: Participate in an outdoor flag ceremony.

2g: With the help of another person, fold the flag.

Notes: These three can be done together, or folding the flag can be done separately, indoors. If you meet at a place with a flagpole, like an school, ask permission to practice with their flag. You can have an outdoor flac ceremony with your Den, you don't need to wait for a Pack meeting.

 

Barry

[KenD500 77]

 

 If done correctly, it is customary the members of the color guard do not salute nor say the pledge.

Please provide a reference for this statement.

[Stosh 3452]

I know I am late to the party, but considering I was looking for advice I assume some others mght come here for the same and I felt something had to be said.

 

Scouts is about the boys, no you or your personal adgenda, it is what is best for them. To those commenting on how they HAVE to participate by actually handling the flag, how big is your Den? Ours is only 8 people but that still would require access to an outdoor flag pole 3 times to be able to get everyone, and given our spread of boys we have new ones every few months come in and they would need it, too. Not to mention the rain and weather we have here 9 months out of the year. The idea that because YOU want it one way everyone else needs to is rediculous. If the child WANTS to handle the flag then by all mean make time and allow for it, but do not overwork yourself AND your scouts because someone on a forum said "ARE YOU KIDDING!.... this is REDICULOUS!" and acted like their way was the only way to be.

 

First of all welcome to the forum.  I think you may have set a new record.  It used to be the newbies got a bit of slack until they figured out the ropes, but I guess someone wasn't impressed with your honesty.  I for one tend to agree with you.  Get out there and practice all you want.  Practice isn't the same as a flag ceremony in my book, but practice is good in case one ever gets called upon to do a ceremony some day.  

 

It's all for the boys and still, there are those that somehow tend to deduce things in a way you have described.  

 

I hope you continue to post your thoughts on the forum and ignore the dissenters, we seem to have our fair share of them..  

[Stosh 3452]

Please provide a reference for this statement.

 

It is customary.  The color guard is normally in motion when the flags are being brought into the room or onto the field.  That is when the command to salute is given for the audience.  The color guard does not walk and salute.  Those carrying the flags do not have a hand free to salute anyway.  

 

Once the flag is presented, there is no command for the color guard to salute before the pledge.  They can show full respect by retaining the "at attention" position.  Because they are members of the honor guard for the flag, their allegiance is assumed and does not need to be pledged.

 

When the flag is retired and folded, the members of the color guard have more important tasks of retiring the flag and getting it folded than standing there doing a salute while others try and fold the flag.

 

While everyone has their own ideas as to how it is done, it customary for the color guard to fulfill their obligations without their attention drawn away in the ceremony.

 

It is customary to fold the flag in a triangle, but like other customary protocols it is NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE this is the proper way of folding the flag.  So, if one ever finds such an official reference, I would really like to see it.  

[blw2 433]

I really don't understand the big deal.....

 

say the pledge outside....call it a ceremony.

let the boys run a flag up a pole if you have one...... doesn't take too long.

march the flag and post the colors.... great!  it's not a requirement, but an opportunity.  Do it outside.... it's an outdoor ceremony.

Light a candle and sing God Bless America while looking at a flag.... easy enough.

 

It's a requirement in the book, to participate.

If this is such a big deal, ask the boys in your unit what that means to them..... and do it their way!

 

A lot of these are just examples of ways we have gotten through the requirement &/or taught the boys a little about flag protocol....

[gumbymaster 98]

This is an interesting question with two very valid arguments.  I suspect the intent of the requirement is to have kids do something actively in the ceremony beyond just being in the audience, yet I think I side with Stosh on this specific question and his comment about standing, saluting, etc.

 

I liken it to going to a regular movie vs going to the Rocky Horror Picture Show.  In both cases you are in the audience, but for a regular movie you are a mere observer or watcher.  But if you go to the Rocky Horror Picture Show you are a participant if do you all the stuff the the audience normally does. 

I don't think ever in my life would I have expected to see a discussion of a flag ceremony and RHPS equated.  Fun analogy.

Edited August 20, 2015 by gumbymaster

[Gone 435]

While everyone has their own ideas as to how it is done, it customary for the color guard to fulfill their obligations without their attention drawn away in the ceremony.

 

 

Marine and Navy color guard have been instructed to salute the ensign as soon as it is clear of your grasp according to chapter 7 of the MCDC manual. Cannot speak for AF and Army. They might not do it right for obvious reasons.

[Stosh 3452]

 The fun part of this whole discussion is the fact that no one does it the same.  The military guys seem to have 2-3 different ways of doing it, veteran's organizations have their processes, even other government organizations do their protocols differently, i.e. police and firefighters.  If I was a member of any of these organizations, it would be important for me to know the routine.  However, I am not, I am a civilian.  I go according to civilian protocol, and I teach it to my boys as well.  If they join the armed forces, they can learn the new protocol as needed.

 

The big hassle in the summer camp originated out of some naval reserve unit "teaching" the camp staff how to do the flag ceremonies.  That's all well and good for the naval reserve people, but it is contrary to what is taught in the US Flag Code for civilians and the BSA Handbook.  So are the scouts to follow the Handbook or some other military protocol?  I kinda think it's important to teach what the BSA has defined in the book.

 

As SM I tend to stick to what is in the US Flag Code and BSA Handbook and further use those protocols for the flag ceremonies.  After all the intent of all this fal-de-rah is trying to pay honor to one's country, the people who fought and died for it and the freedom we enjoy because of it.  So if some guy standing there in his speedo swim suit throws a full military salute when the flag goes by, I don't have a problem with that because that gentleman may be a veteran who has earned the right to do exactly what he did.  

 

On the other hand, I don't think there are any BSA Scouts who have earned the right to salute the flag in a ceremony wearing a made up unofficial uniform and having leaders say it's okay.  Well, it's not.  When those boys serve their time in the military, they will be able to do that for the rest of their lives.  Until then, unless one is in full official uniform, it's hand over the heart.  The US Congress and all the states in the union have agreed that that is the proper way to show respect for the US Flag as a civilian.  If any of my boys become police or firefighters, they may have to learn yet another protocol, but whatever they do it should be appropriate to their situation in life and showing full respect for the occasion.

 

And as far as the "commands" go, whatever is used, it should be understood by those participating in the activities.  I do know what SCOUT SALUTE and PRESENT ARMS means.  I can figure out HAND SALUTE, too.  READY, TWO is a stretch as is TWO if I was not a Scout.

 

I was at one of our local military establishments a few years back doing presentations for Armed Forces Day.  At the end of the day I was cleaning up and packing my car in the parking lot.  I heard the loudspeaker off in the distance calling for the retirement of the flag.  I stood at attention until I saw the flag come down, then resumed my packing.  Two soldiers walked behind me and quietly said "Thank you, you must be one of the scouts."  I was not wearing a Scout uniform, but they understood the intent of respect.  Basically all I did was stop, face the flag and stand quietly.

[CalicoPenn 729]

In general, if the flag is being raised on a pole, (such as at an outdoor ceremony), the order to "present arms" or to "Hand Salute" is given as the flag is being raised.  The "guards" will salute at this time, while watching the flag being raised.  The flag bearers will step back and salute once they have raised the flag and tied it off.  When "Order Arms" or "Two" is commanded, they will return to formation.

 

In general, it the flag is being carried on a standard (aka pole that is carried), the color guard will end up facing the audience with the flag bearers holding the flags and the guards standing at attention next to them while everyone else salutes and states the pledge - the color guard does not salute in this case, nor do they say the pledge.  Only after the pledge has been stated and the order of "two" or "order arms" is given, does the color guard receive orders to post the colors.

 

For the requirement, I still think participate in this case means that the Cubs actually take part in the active, non-spectator part of the ceremony.  Den of eight Cubs?  No problem - one pole is needed for two ceremonies - one to raise the flag and one to lower the flag.  4 Cubs raise the flag and 4 Cubs lower the flag - both are separate ceremonies.

 

While it would be great if the Cubs could raise and lower the flags as part of a memorial day, or labor day, or veteran's day, or independence day celebration, I don't think there are enough holidays and opportunities to do so.  I don't think the intent of the requirement is that the ceremony be part of a larger event - I believe the intent is for the Cubs to learn how to do it and then to try it for themselves.  So how does one figure out how to do that?  As has been suggested, you can jury-rig an outdoor flag raising set-up.  Another alternative would be to approach the guy who has a flag pole set up in his front yard - chances are he's a veteran and would be glad to help teach the Cubs how to do it.  Don't have that guy in your neighborhood?  Talk to the fire department and/or police department and/or the guy in Public Works who raises and lowers the flag at City Hall.  Most are happy to help out and will be fine with the flag being raised and lowered multiple times while the Cubs are learning. 

 

That being said, the BSA doesn't really do a very good job of explaining exactly what they mean by "participate" so yes, I suppose you could decide that saluting and saying the pledge at an outdoor flag raising might meet the requirements - but I'll bring it back to my original post on this subject back in 2012 - Scouting IS for the boys - and I know from experience that boys are much more excited about this when they actually get to raise and lower the flags, when they get to be the color guard and flag bearers, than they are just watching so my questions would be - since Scouting is for the boys, why would anyone not try their hardest to make sure the boys got to experience being part of an outdoor color guard???

[Eagledad 2777]

Good post CP. Some of the Den leaders in our area ask the school if their den could raise and lower the flag for them before or after school. I've never watched them do it, but the Den leaders say the boys have a lot of fun. I imagine since there is no audience, they could raise and lower it several times. I know a few our dens over the years did perform for audiences in our community, but I can't recall where because I was never able to attend. 

 

While I was in the pack, two of our 2nd year Webelos were assigned to be responsible for the opening and closing ceremonies at each pack gathering. They had two 1st year Webelos assist and observe them so they would know what to do next year. Since each den got the chance to be the color guard at a Pack meeting, the Webelos responsibility was to teach them how to perform the ceremony and help the den where ever they needed. The scouts showed up one hour early so the Webelos could do the training. Always went pretty well and the parents loved taking pictures of their sons doing it. Every scout in the pack was part of the color guard at least once every year. Sometimes the Tigers were so small that it might take two of them to hold each flag. 

 

Our pack had a tradition that when the Color Guard leaders commanded "Audience Attention!", "Color Guard Attention!", the den doing the ceremony would shout their Den yell as they came to attention. It was fun to watch. Our troop took that idea and the color guard would come up with some new clever saying at each Troop meeting. It help make the ceremony more fun.

 

Barry

Edited August 20, 2015 by Eagledad

[qwazse 4342]

Let's not forget the downstream benefits of going the whole nine yards ... and this includes incorporating siblings if at all possible. Yes, the commands will have local variation, etc ... But, it's still worth getting those little hands and feet to commit some protocol to muscle memory.

 

When my first crew made it to Seabase, I suddenly realized that the guys were sharp with flag protocol, the girls on the other hand, felt woefully out of place on the lawn looking side-to-side trying to figure out how to salute. They took it all in stride, but I felt like I had sold them short.

 

This spring a younger-sister-of-three-boy-scouts venturer with basic military training was a little uncomfortable on color guard for Son #2's ECoH. She did very well, and it was an honor to have her. But the boys had to help her snap into the role 1/2 hour before "showtime."

 

Venturers attend precious few meetings and there are so many things needed to get them up to speed -- camp hygiene, flab protocol, paperwork, etc... It would be nice if this weren't one of them. By putting the youngn's through their paces now, you're doing some advisor (or school teacher or band director, etc ...) in the future a solid.