And so it begins!

[moosetracker]

Well it is February. My husband just returned from an Eagle board last night and 3 of the 6 projects they had to bulk up, before they could approve them. Before it was a once in a while thing. But the Eagle workbook has the scouts now thinking the Eagle project is as a sprint around the gym for one loop.

 

One kid had one sign for a cemetary that he himself was going to refurbish. That was it. The board got him up to two signs and a kiosk. (Will be subject to the cemetaries approval, but scout thinks they will like the idea).. And he was made to understand that he had to DIRECT others to do the work..

 

Their board has now changed to rejected due to "not enough leadership shown.". But my husband see this as going to be a growing problem.

 

Have any of you already seen an immediate change for the worse ?? or ?? better with the first round of Scouts trying to interpret the new workbook?(This message has been edited by moosetracker)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[JoeBob]

Moose,

 

I applaud your troop's increased stringency. At a recent roundtable I was taken aback by most of the SM's attitude towards the move to less written material for Eagle projects and Boards. The SMs seemed to relish having everything minutely written out so that they could hide behind the written word. I view that as giving the scouts the ability to leverage the written word to minimize their effort. The scouts were hairspliting as much as the SMs.

 

Rejecting a few projects and adding a little uncertainty to a candidates mindset will hopefully motivate superior effort and be a more accurate reflection of the real world.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I read nothing in the new policy which changes the standard for the actual projects (not to be confused with the project paperwork). Yes, officially now, you could lead two other people for one hour and call it a project -- but you better cure the common cold or invent a better light bulb or something....

 

Projects still need to be of sufficient scope for the Scout to demonstrate leadership. They also need to provide a service to the community.

 

If some Scouts and leaders believe the actual project has been lessened or dumbed-down they are mistaken. During the change-over to the new model it is important that unit leaders and district/council advancement committees hold the line to make sure that assumption doesn't become reality.

[moosetracker]

I agree, and I believe our District Advancement is trying to hold the line, which is why they did not allow the one sign only redone by the scout himself.

 

The thing is, that the scout (parents, maybe even troop leaders look at the 2 person 1 hour minimums.. Not the vague district will still turn down a project if it doesn't meet the scope..) And think the scope can be met with a 1 hour 2 person project.

 

Thomas54 posted in MIB's thread on Lone Scout something, I will repost here as I think it is pertanent to this discussion also.

 

This is a can of worms but I will wade in anyway.

 

We had a scout that submitted an eagle project for sign -off. Myself, our Eagle coordinator and the committee thought it was a little light on leadership. We asked him to hold a work day where he could lead others and not just his mom and younger brother through a work day. We thought it was relatively a minor request. He was at this point only 13 years and 2-3 months old. Well it blew up and everybody dug in. The parents were not going to have him do another thing. The kept chanting that I cannot add or subtract from the requirements.

 

The charter was brought in, the district and council were brought in too. Meetings between me, the parents and the Charter were held. Meetings with the District advancement chair and finally with the Council advancement chair. Neither side would yield. The parents were not going to have their boy do another item and I was not going to sign off.

 

It got so bad the scout quit our troop and went to another troop. But they wouldn't sign off there either. Mind you all this took place over at least four months and it would have taken the scout one Saturday morning to complete the task.

 

So in the council's infinite wisdom they decided to make this scout a lone scout for two months. While he is alone scout his dad was able to sign off on his eagle project which cleared the way for him to become an eagle as a lone scout.

 

 

Sounds like in his district the troops wanted to hold the line on a worthwhile scope, while the parents were all about narrowly looking at the minimums and seeing in it the bare minimum scope.. And the District/Council found a way to let this scout pass through with a very unworthy project.. (If 2 troops, not 1 troop thought it was a weak project, I will have to consider that there is merit in that one side of the story.)

 

It just means more scouts coming to the board with very weak projects, and the board either having to turn them away, or offer suggestions on how they can put some more meat to it. And maybe alot more helecopter parents trying to demand acceptence of the very weak project, so junior doesn't have to waste much time on it.

 

Our District Advancement Group wants to put together a Training for Troop to train at least one Eagle coach per troop in helping the Scout organize and understand the new Eagle workbook.. Fine by me, but I will probably look for my Trainers for the Course from those people who sit on the Eagle board.. So, aside from them getting my blessing, promoting the course for them, and helping with the registration.. As far as my job goes to put this course together for them.. Piece of cake. But, I think it will be a good idea.

[frankpalazzi]

Question: If the project was completed AS PROPOSED and APPROVED by the District Advancement Chairman, how could it be rejected by the Eagle BOR? Did the project(s) not live up to their original proposal?

[Eagle92]

Frank,

 

In some councils, the EBOR are the ones that review and approve the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project prior to it being done.

[moosetracker]

Yep! That what is going on here. Last night they had 6 project approvals, and 2 EBORS.. It was the project approvals that was having the difficulties.

 

[frankpalazzi]

OK, I misunderstood. This was the district project approval, (before the project starts), NOT the final EBOR. I thought the way they did it here was universal. (DAC approves project plan).

[fred8033]

From what I've read here, the issue is proposed projects that are inadequate for showing leadership and not the new eagle advancement process. Nothing has changed in the BSA expectations for the eagle rank. The changes have only been in the paperwork side to standardize and simplify processes that were never part of the published BSA requirements.

 

From the above example of one cemetery sign or the lone scout, let the scout know that the EBOR can reject the whole project if it does not show sufficient leadership ... after-the-fact. Doesn't matter what is signed off at the proposal phase. If the project didn't demonstrate the candidate's leadership skills, the whole project can be rejected by the EBOR. A smart scout (and his family) should get the hint that wasting time on an inadequate project is too big a risk.

[DeanRx]

moosetracker wrote, "And maybe alot more helecopter parents trying to demand acceptence of the very weak project, so junior doesn't have to waste much time on it."

 

Sounds like something that would happen. A LOT of this can be avoided by clearly stating what will and will not be accepable at review time, not after the porject has been completed.

 

As for the post about a scout being designated a "lone" scout after two seperate units refused a watered down project, well councils do silly stuff all the time in the name of harmony.

 

fred wrote, "From the above example of one cemetery sign or the lone scout, let the scout know that the EBOR can reject the whole project if it does not show sufficient leadership ... after-the-fact. Doesn't matter what is signed off at the proposal phase. If the project didn't demonstrate the candidate's leadership skills, the whole project can be rejected by the EBOR. A smart scout (and his family) should get the hint that wasting time on an inadequate project is too big a risk."

 

Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly. A smart scout would make sure his Eagle project demonstrates enough leadership, but once its approved by either the Dist. Advancement Chair or EBOR (whichever does it for your district / council), then the scout should have assurance that if they complete the project as described, they will have an excellent chance at passing their EBOR! Now, I understand if the scout fails to perform the project as described, or fails to lead, etc... the EBOR can take this as reason to reconsider. However, to let a scout move forward with an Eagle project and then after its completion state, "Naa, we just don't think it met the standard." is pretty poor form on the part of the EBOR and smacks of a board on a power trip, not one intent on objectively assessing a scout's achievements.

[moosetracker]

While I agree DeanRx, I have heard a similar comment from my husband. They will tell the scout up-front that althought they could go through with the project as outlined, they will let him know if that is all that is done, it will be rejected when they come in front of the EBOR.

 

So someone else can explain it, but it almost sounds like during the project approvals, the board doesn't get to really approve or deny the project.. If they use to have that right and the new workbook took that away from them and gave it to the troop, I am unsure. But I know that now the troop does have alot more responsibility with the Eagle project..

 

Therefore, I guess if the scout (or parents) start complaining the EBOR do not have a right to accept or deny the project at this level (maybe because the troop accepted it & the board can't deny it???) The board's only resource is to state "OK, you can do that if you want, but we do have the right to deny the project for not having enough leadership when it comes before the EBOR. We are just giving you warning, it will be denied there." then explain they will then need to go through the appeal process and what it is.

[skeptic]

Once the project is considered complete by the recipient, the EBOR rep responsible for project reviews should also review it to be sure it meets the standard expected. If it does not, then he or she should discuss it with the candidate, and NOT sign for final approval. It should not pass to the actual Eagle board to decline the project at that point, unless there is a major issue discovered or dishonesty.

 

Follow the procedures for approval to start, and make sure that reviews are actual reviews, and not just sign the line. Those putting their signatures on these project papers need to take their approvals seriously. Half the problems that occasionally occur are because the ADULTS do not understand their roles, or they are too afraid to step on someone's toes. If you take the responsibility, then do it right.

[Eamonn]

Here in my neck of the woods, the Scout meets with the District Advancement Chair. Or a member of the Advancement Committee.

They go over the plan step by step.

Our Advancement Chair wasn't available for a while, so I stood in for him.

I really enjoyed meeting with the Scouts and doing what I could not only to help them ensure that their project would be a success, but also make them think about what leadership skills they would need and use to make this happen.

I really don't see how a ESBOR could ever in a million years deny a project that has been approved by the organization who benefits from the project, the SM, the Troop Committee and the Advancement Committee.

If the project wasn't going to meet the requirement then it should never have been approved before the work was started.

For a completed project to be denied by the ESBOR because it didn't meet the requirement before it was started?? Would be a smack in the face everyone that approved it and be unfair to the Lad.

Each and every Scout that I have worked with on this has been a little worried when he has met with me. Everyone of them has wanted to do what it takes to get their project approved, they also all want to do a good job.

For my part, I've never seen this as something that just requires a rubber stamp. I like to meet with the Lad and go over the project, taking my time, making suggestions and driving home the point that most of all that it is a leadership project not just a job that needs doing.

We do have some people in the Council who think that the project has to be at least 120 hours or some number in order to meet the requirement. They are just wrong!

I'm not sure that having a Lad meet with the Advancement Committee is such a good idea?

Working with just one person who can put the Lad at ease and who can pass on the idea that they are doing what's need to ensure the project is a success, seems a lot more fair to the Lad.

I never fail to be amazed about how many different types of projects Scouts come up with. I've seen everything from Scouts planning and carrying out a Day Camp for mentally handicapped young people to building cages for injured wild life. Some of the most noticeable projects in the area where I live are not the best projects when it comes to leadership.

I'd sooner see a group of Scouts work on one sign than see Dad make 50 signs without the Scout showing any leadership.

When it comes to Eagle Scout Leadership Service Projects, it helps if the SM has met with the organization that is going to benefit from the project and explains what the project is really all about. If the Troop has someone who guides the Scout before he meets with the Advancement Chair.

Also if the parents are made to understand what their role is and isn't.

When I met with Scouts we as a rule met in my home and a parent was there. I made sure that before they both left the parent was aware that this was their son's project and while they were of course welcome to help. -Help didn't mean taking it over.

When it seemed that some projects were a little weak. I found that by asking open ended questions, 99% of the time Scouts came up with their own tweaks that were needed to beef things up so that the requirements were met.

I also tried to ensure that when the time came for the ESBOR that I was there to ensure that what was done was what we had talked about and what was in the project work book.

Having the Scout and his parent see me as a person who was trying to ensure that the project worked and was there for them did away with ant feelings of confrontation

Ea.

[Gunny2862]

I'm lucky, I'm actually seeing stronger projects from within the Troop, but, we're definitely vetting in advance with our Districts Eagle Project Coordinator(DEPC) (these four appointed older Volunteers sign and pre-certify for the DAC on Eagle Projects in our District - we can use any of the four).

 

For us, the Scout comes up with an idea, tentatively pitches it to a recipient, comes back and asks the SM for a read on whether the rough idea is worth fleshing out, The Scout works out the major framework (basic outline) and pitches it to our Troop Committee including our Advancement Chair, we shoot any necessary holes or point out what the DEPC is going to ask and send him on. Once he gets a signature from the DEPC he is free to complete the project and as long as it is done in accordance with what was pitched to and signed off by the DEPC, we are assured he'll get his completion sign off and that it won't be a problem with his EBOR.

When the DEPC does vet the project and in my judgement being there he does what was asked and shows leadership in the process and then there is a problem with a final signature - that's when I'll get grumpy.

[AvidSM]

I agree with most of the posters here (althouth the termonology some of you are using is confusing). The EBOR is not the place to be accepting or rejecting a eagle candidates proposal. That job should be done by the Chair of the District Advancement Committee or a Member of that committee as designated by the Chair.

 

In my district, these people do not sit as a "board" when approving the proposals. Also, there is no Council invovlement with this appoval unless the candidate or his parents appeal the decision.

 

The troop should be doing it's job vetting the proposal as best it can. Some do not and it makes the district's job harder. It varies from troop to troop in my district. And, as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with the changes to the Workbook.