Using Schoolwork for Merit Badge and /or Advancement Sign off?

[OwntheNight]

Got to thinking about this from the other thread about moosetracker's dilemma with the Scout that was trying to skirt the intent of the MB.

 

How do you deal with a boy who is taking classes in school and wants to use those requirements for either advancement or MB completion?

 

First off, we do not have a boy in our troop trying to do this right now. This is all a hypothetical situation I'm creating.

 

Myself and the other TTFC ASM sent out a note to the boys and their parents, stating that if they participated in Red Ribbon Week activities and/or went through the Bullying seminars at school, that we would sign off those requirements. I know the School District takes those things very seriously and emphasizes the message very strongly to all the students. So we were OK with signing off the requirements.

 

Here's my hypothetical, and I'm only using my son as an example, since I know what classes he is taking. This is not the whoosh-whoosh of helicopters running around, I swear!

 

Along with his required courses (Math, Science, English, History) he is taking Band, A Mutimedia developing class (This is a prerequisite for next year, if he decides to be on the School News crew/ He's creating audio and video projects using video camera's, editing software, etc..)and Tennis/PE. Next year, he will have the opportunity to take a full year course on Robotics.

 

So in that scenario, I see quite a few opportunities to work on different MB requirements. (Music, Cinematography, Robotics, Personal Fitness, those are the one's I can think of just off the top of my head, without looking at all the MB requirements)

 

I know the rule is to have the SM sign off the blue card first to authorize him to begin working on the MB, and then get him the list of MBC's to contact. Obviously, a teacher can't sign off the requirements, unless they are a registered MBC.

 

Would he have to have the SM sign off on all those blue cards at the beginning of the school year to work on them throughout the year?

 

or...

 

Would you as a SM or MBC sign off the card or requirements for work done at school?

 

Here's the gray area.

 

He would be technically fulfilling the requirements, if he's participating in class, and learning about the subject matter from a "professional instructor", But he's also in a way, circumventing the spirit of the MB and the program. While he would have to reach out to a MBC, he would only be showing the work, not in addition to it and doing it separately.

 

 

As a CM, I encourage my DL's to allow for requirements to be signed off by participation in school activities. As long as they are in the same year that the boys are in the program. In other words, stuff you did as a Kindergartner, can't be used for Tiger or Wolf year requirements.

 

I hope this makes sense, or I am just reading way too much between the lines?

 

Thanks, for the input.

[KC9DDI]

At least at one point, there was a T-2-1 requirement to participate in a school or community drug free awareness program, or something to that effect. So often the DARE program at school was used to fulfill this requirement.

 

There is no condition on advancement requiring that the work be done only for Scouting. I honestly see it as kind of silly if we make a Scout do the exact same requirement over and over - once for Scouts, once for school, once for church, etc etc. I don't see the "spirit" of the advancement program as being one that's going to hold up Scouts based on technicalities and made up limitations. What would they gain by repeating a requirement over and over? If they learned it once outside of Scouting, they're not going to "learn it better" by doing the same thing over again just for Scouts.

 

If the requirement reads "In the presence of your MB Counselor, do X" or "While on a Scouting activity, do X" then you are right to require that it be done in Scouting, or in the presence of the counselor. If the requirement just says "Do X" -- then it doesn't matter where, when or why they do it, as long as it's done. Why do we keep trying to make things complicated?

 

I don't think it's as much as a grey area as you might think. Many requirements are worded to be as specific as necessary - "Since joining your troop...", "Discuss with your counselor...", "On a troop camp out....". If the requirement doesn't specify where, when or why the requirement has to be completed, then it's just not a factor.

[The Blancmange]

There are several requirements that specifically allow for activities in school to be counted. Someone else pointed out the DARE program.

 

One of the optional music choices is "Serve for six months as a member of a school band, choir, or other local musical group; or perform as a soloist in public six times."

 

If I were an Art counselor, I would not have a problem counting school projects toward the project requirements there.

 

For Drafting, it would seem to make sense to allow use of projects from school from someone who was enrolled those type of classes.

 

There are other examples. To answer the question, I would not simply sign off on them as SM, I would assign an MBC and let them make the call. I suppose someone could turn this into another "double dipping" thread, but to me the real question seems to be, has the scout learned the material and completed the work contemplated by the requirements, and has he received the benefit of working with a counselor? Having a scout repeat work that was performed skillfully in another setting doesn't seem necessary.

 

(This message has been edited by the blancmange)

[Tampa Turtle]

We have allowed. For some boys time-wise it is the only way to do somethings. In training they said OK. For Reading MB we encourage it as we see the Reading MB as a accomplishment for the reading challenged.

[skeptic]

Back in "the day", in California, you had to take what was called the "Constitution Test" in order to graduate from 8th grade. Teachers were considered valid counselors for some merit badges automatically then, and Citizenship in the Nation was one of those. Almost every scout I knew passed that badge after passing his test for 8th grade. My teacher made me review a couple of items that were not specifically covered on the test or the prep; but do not know if others had that experience. It was pretty much a slam dunk anyway, due to the entire semester of study.

 

Reading and Scholarship also were in a similar category, as was Public Speaking. There is no stricture as to where or how they learn the material; so if they did it in school, then a review should be all that is necessary in most cases. JMHO

[Venividi]

Plus, while recognizing that teachers get pressure from students, parents, (and possibly administrators) to inflate grades and credit sloppy work, teachers are more experienced with dealing with such pressures and better able to resist.

 

so all things considered, I think the scout is more likley to come away with a meaningful experience that he would receive in a half day merit badge class.

[Eagle92]

Grant you this is the CS level, but some of the work my son has done in his home school work were either inspired to be doen by his TC, W, or B CSHBs. Also some things that were planned to do with his den, he did in school. The important point is that the work has to be done between June 1 and May 31st in order for it to count for the advancment in the book he is working on.

 

I also know that 2 of the Scouts I counseled for CitNat and Cit World who were also home schooled had their parents incorporate what I was doing with them into their school work.

[Lisabob]

I don't see a problem here, as long as the work meets the actual requirements.

 

As someone who has been a counselor for the citizenship MBs and communications MB, I've had many boys share with me work that they've done in their classes, no problem. Either a note from their teacher or the scout showing me the project he did for school will typically suffice. From the opposite end - I teach political science at the college level and my students who were also boy scouts and who earned the citizenship badges nearly always have an advantage in my intro-level courses because they know a good bit of the material from the badge requirements.

 

So, when there are obvious connections, why wouldn't we allow the scout/student to take advantage of that?

[IM_Kathy]

one of the best ways to deal with this situation is to ask the band teacher (as with your example) if they would be willing to sign up to become a merit badge councilor. here there is no fee for MBC, but they have to take the online YPT. That way the teacher is the one seeing and signing off rather than the boy coming back and just saying what he did.

 

My son used 2 MBC for his communication MB... he participates in Debate at high school - his debate coach is a MBC but works mostly for the troop in our town... but other requirements were needed to be done at troop level so he had a MBC that normally works with our troop do those things with him. He also helped a webelo that no longer has a den finish up his outdoorsman and complete his arrow of light as part of that badge.

 

so basically I don't have an issue with using stuff from school, but I like to see those people seeing and saying he did x,y,z be actual MBC.

[momof2cubs]

We have discussed here a lot the difference between the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules (i.e. requirements.

 

However, it is equally important to remember that we cannot (CANNOT!) add to the requirements. Unless something specifically says "with your counselor", "with your troop", "as a patrol", or something like that, I do not see any reason why something done as school cannot count towards a scouting requirement.

[Venividi]

> However, it is equally important to remember that we cannot (CANNOT!) add to the requirements.

 

 

As I started reading this, I thought the next sentence was going to be: ... so we cannot require that scouts do a mertit badge as part of school and take an entire semester to finish :-)

[SeattlePioneer]

Personally I think it's GREAT if Scouting can help recognize boys for their accomplishments in school. Recognizing achievements in band as a substantial part of the Music Merit Badge would be a classic example of that, I would suppose.

 

 

[raisinemright]

As home schoolers, we've gone th eopposite direction. Merit badge becomes the curriculum. My son is on a robotics team. He spent 6 months designing and building a robot that did far more than making one with the lego brain to crawl across the table and turn right would ever do.

 

With only a couple exceptions, everything he did on the team was mirrored by the requirements. Even though the project was many months long and included several 24 hour team sessions leading up to the competitions, earning the Merit Badge actually only took a few minutes.

[Beavah]

To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor - BSA Executive Board official policy on MBs

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

Given da BSA policy I quoted above, I think it would be a real shame if MBC's so completely abandoned their duty as to just sign things off based on school classes. It would really be cheatin' the boy.

 

School and Scouting are different, eh? In school, a lad will sit with 30+ other kids, get a few minutes of da teacher's time, and spend most of his time doin' what's required for a grade. Scouting is different, or should be! The boy actually gets the attention of an adult who truly specializes in the area, as a mentor and friend. Most of the time, it shouldn't be like school, eh? The boy shouldn't be spending most of his time doin' what's required for a grade, and minimizing his contact with da counselor.

 

I remember once watchin' a young MBC, a master's student in EE, workin' with a few boys on Electricity or Electronics MB. There were a few very bright young 13-14 year old scouts who were clearly "A" students in school, and who had memorized their school text on electricity. Could quote stuff, even, though they sometimes got da pronunciations wrong. But they'd never had an adult sit with 'em and just play around building a bunch of different circuits. It was magical. They were at it for hours, with lightbulbs goin' on one right after the other (figuratively and literally). With that mentoring hand, the boys went from successful students to enthusiastic apprentices to some real level of proficiency in the topic. That's what MB counseling can and should be doin', because schools often can't.

 

Now, all that's not to say that a MBC for Theater MB shouldn't "count" the boy's performance in "Beavah flew over the cuckoo's nest". Synergy is fine. But da MBC should attend the performance, or perhaps a rehearsal and then the performance, walk the stage, talk to the boy afterward, etc. And then perhaps take him and a few of his buddies to a professional or community theater performance and talk to folks in the production and such.

 

It's not about signoffs. It's about givin' the boy your full attention and sharing your enthusiasm and benefiting together from da relationship.

 

Anything less is subtractin' from da program.

 

Beavah

 

[BartHumphries]

When I was a Scout, I was told that trying to get one thing to qualify for two different types of requirements (school/Scouts/church/whatever, pick any two) was what adults did. because nobody has enough time to do everything. Don't reinvent the wheel when you don't have to.(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)