Eagle Mills

[JMHawkins]

When I hear/read stories of Eagle Scout candidates not being able to tie a bowline, I don't look on it as a failure of the Scout - I look on it as a failure of the unit (whether its the adult leaders, or the PLC, or a combination of both) in not providing opportunities to use the skills in other contexts.

 

Tonight was our District Roundtable, and at the end of the meeting, a Boy Scout from one of the local troops made a brief presentation about a project that, well, details are unimportant. What is important is that it was a terrible presentation. The scout was disorganized, unimpressive, and frankly unprepared. I don't want to pile on to the poor kid, but it was bad.

 

Okay, so it was a teenage Boy Scout presenting to a bunch of adult scout leaders, what do you expect? Only he wasn't just a Boy Scout, he was an Eagle Scout. OA too. He's from a troop that's known for pumping out lots of 14 year old Eagles.

 

Now I don't know how good his outdoor skills are, but his communication skills are poor, and overall he gave the impression of your average, ordinary, High School kid. He didn't show the poise, confidence and general competence I would expect of someone with an Eagle dangling from his pocket and a white sash across his chest. Those are supposed to be marks of exceptional achievement. He didn't live up to the decorations on his uniform.

 

I don't blame him. The adults in his Eagle Mill troop let him down. This kid thinks he's accomplished something significant, but I sure don't see it. Neither did the other committee member there with me - we talked about it on the ride home. I have to say I left that Roundtable dissapointed.

 

Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, but it just makes me sad to see this. It robs the kids in that troop of a real chance to develop themselves by telling them they've achieved great things when they haven't, and it cheapend the recongition that other kids get when they really do excell.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I'm curious as to why this boy was making the presentation in the first place?

[evmori]

Ditto to what packsaddle posted.

[gcnphkr]

Last night was our District Roundtable...The Roundtable Commissioner was disorganized, unimpressive, and frankly unprepared.

 

I think it is cool that a scout that could be a Freshman in High School got up to promote a project of some kind in front of 50 or more adults that evidently don't have anything better to do than be critical of scouts. I've seen many competent adults become bumbling dolts standing in front of less intimidating groups.

 

"but his communication skills are poor, and overall he gave the impression of your average, ordinary, High School kid."

 

Likely this would be because he, like 90% of all Eagle Scouts, is an average, ordinary, High School kid.

 

"He didn't show the poise, confidence and general competence I would expect of someone with an Eagle dangling from his pocket and a white sash across his chest."

 

Last I looked none of these are requirements for Eagle, they certainly are not for the OA. While I've known a few Eagle Scouts that would meet our Norman Rockwell ideal of a Eagle Scout, most are just ordinary teenagers that worked a bit longer and a bit harder than some of their buddies.

 

If at 14 this scout has the gumption to organize an project (I assume, unneeded for any person reason) and promote it to a group of strangers then I'd guess that he will end up being in that special 10% with a bit more experience.

[Stosh]

I don't think the content of the presentation is important but any Eagle scout should be able to get up in front of a group of people and make a presentation that doesn't embarrass him.

 

I make it a point that all my boys make at least one or two up-front presentations throughout the year. Popcorn point-man got up at the last COH and laid out his plan for the sales this year. The Summer Camp point-man has made a couple of preliminary presentations on next year's program already and will have more as time goes on. These presentations are not counted if they are made only to the troop. These presentations need the boys and their parents. From TF on, my boys are all taught to make communication contact with adults through electronic media, phone and in person. My Tenderfoot Den Chief candidate made a personal request to the CubMaster and was eventually contacted that he had a den over the phone. Then the boy set up a face-to-face with the CM to discuss the details and show his DC training credentials. Not bad for an 11 year old kid. Yes it was only one adult, but it's difficult to sell oneself. Start with one and build up to a small group.

 

A FC scout MC'd the last COH we had. As per my other post, my SPL didn't do to well at the Committee Meeting this week, but he'll learn.

 

My new ASM, Eagled just before turning 18 (1/10), completed fundamentals, completed WB training and made a presentation to Roundtable last night on uniforms in the BSA for his ticket. Not bad for 9 months work by an 18 year old in front of seasoned veteran scouters. When he started WB, he was pulled aside and informed that the staff was concerned about his maturity level being only 18. By the time the class work was done, they had rescinded their comments.

 

Too often we focus in on the requirements for Eagle which under the new program do fairly well in developing management skills, but we continue to lack the program that develops leadership. This is what you do for Scout, this is what you do for TF, this is what you do for SC, this is what you do for FC, this is what you do for Star, this is what you do for Life, this is what you do for Eagle. Every step of the way is instruction in how to follow. Where's the leadership? Where's the requirement that the boy develop teaching, make a presentation, get up front of a crowd, take the lead, get out front kind of instruction?

 

Teaching leadership is a risky business, one could crash and burn at any time and that would permanently harm the boy's self-esteem. But if he does it often enough and eventually learns to dig himself out of his hole, he'll have self-confidence instead of just some superficial self-esteem. It's one thing to have everyone tell you how good you are (self-esteem) and it's quite another to know how good you are (self-confidence).

 

A boy makes a presentation, it's lousy, but everyone praises him and thanks him for taking the time to put out a presentation. The boy walks away thinking it was okay and the next time it will be just as bad.

 

A boy makes a presentation, it's lousy, but someone with some honesty tells him what's really going on and it stunk up the proceedings. The boy walks away thinking he needs to get his act together and next time it will be better.

 

Eagle mills usually don't have sufficient time to build leaders, they're goal is to produce Eagles, not leaders.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[BrentAllen]

I, for one, am not spending all my time in Scouting to help boys earn Eagle so they can just turn out to be average, ordinary high schoolers. They can do that on their own, without Scouting or my help. If we aren't here to make a difference, why even bother?

 

Yep, I've seen Eagle Mills, and the Eagles they produce. I'd be embarrassed with some of the results.

[clemlaw]

I was the Secretary of our OA Lodge. And if I do say so myself, the meeting minutes I took were probably the best minutes in the history of the Order of the Arrow. I bet they're still tucked away in some file cabinet somewhere. And that newsletter I put out wasn't half bad either.

 

On the other hand, I knew arrowmen who were absolutely lousy at writing anything or at public speaking. But they knew how to work a shovel, a saw, an axe, a post hole digger, etc., better than I could ever dream of doing.

 

We were both important. I took care of the irksome task of cranking out the newsletter. He took care of the weighty responsibility of building a fence. But was one of us more deserving of wearing a white sash and an Eagle medal? I would say he was.

 

Incidentally, at roundtable last night, there was a presentation by a scout of an upcoming project by the OA chapter. (I know it wasn't the same roundtable, because this guy was a Life Scout.) IMHO, he did a pretty good job.

 

There was also a presentation about something by a member of the council staff. (I couldn't quite make out his square knots from the back of the room, but I'm pretty sure one of them said he was an Eagle.) He also conveyed the information he needed to convey, but I actually remember thinking to myself that was disorganized, unimpressive, and frankly unprepared. I don't want to pile on to the poor professional scouter, but it was bad.

[packsaddle]

Evidently I'm not going to get an answer to my question. Oh well...in that case, could someone define, "Eagle Mill"? I'd like to be able to point to one if I see it.

The Eagle Mills I'm familiar with makes pretty good flour although I understand there's another somewhere that makes good cider.

 

Is an "Eagle Mill" a program that allows boys to meet the requirements and advance as quickly as they want? Is it a program that places no additional impediments other than the requirements? ...or is this a just disparaging term that we apply to successful programs that are not like ours but that we nevertheless consider to be inferior in spite of (because of?) their success?

[gcnphkr]

Packsaddle,

 

I've come to the conclusion that an "Eagle Mill" is 1) any unit that recruits more scouts than your unit, 2) unlike your unit, keeps those scouts around long enough for them to actually earn their Eagle or 3) does not require that their scouts become profession project managers, orators and fully capable of showing Les Stroud how to manage in the wilderness before granting them an Eagle.(This message has been edited by jet526)

[moosetracker]

I am sure you two really do know what people refer to by Eagle Mill.

 

Although I am unsure if this example is a sure sign of one, because boys can have pluses & weaknesses and learn to depend on their teammates for those skills they do not possess.. If you learn true leadership or teamwork by utilizing your manpower around you to the best of your ability, but don't possess all the charactoristics your self you still could be a worthy Eagle.

 

Anyway when I hear EagleMill this is what I see.

 

1) Have the expectation that the majority of boys should make Eagle at 13 or 14, and pride themselves and point to this young advancement as a proof of them running a successful program.

2) Run merit badges during troop meetings as if in a classroom setting. Boys do not have to have the desire to learn the MB, or put much effort in to the MB, just show up and take up space.

3) Do not plan an event unless it is riddled with a list of the advancements they will work on during the event. Adults lead the boys through them.

4) Program is very Adult driven without giving anything to offer the boys a true boy led troop.

5) Once someone completes a requirement, little time is spent on honing the skill. You go through the motions, do it and then forget it as you move on to the next thing on your list of requirements.

6) Little emphisis is put on fun just for ... well... the fun of it. Or learning leadership, or building charactor. You just jump hoops and work through a checklist as if it was a grocery list.

 

Other people can add or dispute this list. But, this is what I see as a Troop that is an Eagle Mill.

 

 

[evmori]

Eagle Mill = advancement before anything else.

[packsaddle]

Actually, no, I don't know what an 'Eagle Mill' is. The implied wink-wink connotes that we all understand that there is such a concept and that is probably true. I am questioning whether we all actually 'know' what it is, or have the same idea about it.

 

I guess my point is that while it seems easy to point out extreme situations and examples, the real test of our ability to distinguish an 'Eagle Mill' from another program is to identify the boundary or marginal threshold that must be passed in order to qualify as a 'mill' as opposed to a really-well-run program. Presumably, from the term itself, the most important characteristic has to do with boys earning Eagle. On the further assumption that they actually earn the rank, what measure do I apply to determine the difference? Or is it purely subjective?

 

For example, in the characteristics given by Moosetracker, how many of those have to apply to a program to qualify as an 'Eagle Mill'? If even one is missing, is it still an 'Eagle Mill'? What about missing two...or three? Does having only one of those characteristics make it an 'Eagle Mill'?

Are all of those characteristics of equal importance. If not, then what is the objective weight to be applied to each in order to form this judgment?

 

"1) Have the expectation that the majority of boys should make Eagle at 13 or 14, and pride themselves and point to this young advancement as a proof of them running a successful program."

So is it 13 or is it 14? If one boy waits until 18 but all the rest make Eagle by age 14, does that disqualify the program? What about 15? What is the 'proper' age for a boy to make Eagle?

 

"2) Run merit badges during troop meetings as if in a classroom setting. Boys do not have to have the desire to learn the MB, or put much effort in to the MB, just show up and take up space."

If they do this but boys do not earn Eagle, does it still apply? A boring troop meeting will most likely result in loss of members. If the MB counselor is an approved MB counselor, who is to say the boys put insufficient effort into the MB, other than the counselor?

 

"3) Do not plan an event unless it is riddled with a list of the advancements they will work on during the event. Adults lead the boys through them."

There are two things in this one. 'Adult led' is one and that, I suspect, could apply to a lot of programs that are NOT 'Eagle Mills'. The other thing is that the events include an efficient plan for advancement. Again I suspect there are plenty of other good programs which are not "Eagle Mills" but make plans along these lines. I could be wrong.

 

"4) Program is very Adult driven without giving anything to offer the boys a true boy led troop." See above.

 

"5) Once someone completes a requirement, little time is spent on honing the skill. You go through the motions, do it and then forget it as you move on to the next thing on your list of requirements."

If a single boy 'dawdles' does that make it NOT an "Eagle Mill"? What fraction of the unit must savor the moment and hone their skills in order to avoid being an "Eagle Mill"?

 

"6) Little emphisis is put on fun just for ... well... the fun of it. Or learning leadership, or building charactor. You just jump hoops and work through a checklist as if it was a grocery list."

If a unit doesn't allow fun activities, I suggest that boys will either leave for other alternatives or else not join in the first place. If this is one characteristic of an "Eagle Mill", I suspect the unit will not last long. Where am I going wrong in all this?

 

So give me something that is clear and objective...something that is clearly understood by anyone who reads it.

[Horizon]

When I see the words "Eagle Mill" I tend to take a walk away from my computer until I calm down a bit. The term is offensive and insulting. I EARNED my Eagle a few weeks before my 14th birthday. I will put my ESLP up for review at any time. I will happily discuss my skills, my PORs, my merit badge sash, and my continued dedication to Scouting.

 

Even better - here is an article about my Scoutmaster and my old Troop:

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/article.aspx?subjectid=370&articleid=20100919_38_D1_CUTLIN380568

 

He runs what some posters here would call an Eagle Mill. As a matter of fact, after listening to the insults and comments, I believe the Troop now has t-shirts that read "Eagle Factory."

 

Read the article - if you want to call that Troop an Eagle Mill - go ahead. I would be PROUD to be considered in their company, and in fact as a Scoutmaster I work towards emulating the model that is described in that article.

[BrentAllen]

pack,

An Eagle Mill is kind of like pornography - hard to describe, but you know it when you see it.

 

Some traits:

Parents and leaders dragging deathbed Eagle candidates across the finish line, by the scruff of their necks.

 

Scouts who never show up at meetings or outings (while working on Eagle), except to ask for help on their Eagle Service project. They usually have trouble getting help, since none of the younger Scouts even know who these boys are.

 

Troops helping boys get Eagle, no matter how bad their conduct. Drugs, vandalism, theft - it doesn't matter, just get them to Eagle.

 

 

[clemlaw]

So it looks like poor public speaking skills are now lumped in with drugs, vandalism, and theft.

 

One of my Eagle merit badges was Public Speaking. Apparently, for the scout in the original post, it was something else.