First Class Requiement 3

[runintherain]

My son crossed over to his Boy Scout troop in March. He is having a great time and has not missed a meeting or a campout. He has also done almost every service opportunity that has come up. He went to a week long summer camp in June. Because of all this and the fact that he already knew most of the outdoor type things (we spend a lot of time outdoors, even though I was never a Scout), he is already doen with his 1st Class advancements. He still needs his Scoutmaster Conference and BOR.

 

His fast advancement seems to have rubbed a couple of the Assistant Scoutmasters the wrong way. They both have kids that came to Boy Scouts at the same time as my son. One of them also has a son that is a year older and just received his 1st Class.

 

The ASM with the 2 sons came up to me at a meeting 2 weeks ago (I am training to be an ASM, I just have BSALT left to take) and told me that he spoke to my son and told him to slow down. He said he is very concerned, that 1st Class should take a year and that is why they have the requirement 3 about 10 outings. My son has been on 6 campouts and has done 6 or 7 service projects. I will also note that he was signed off on 1st Class requirement 3 by an ASM that has been doing this a long time and is heavily involved in our District and our Council. This newer ASM said that the other ASM should not have signed him off on that. He also said my son would get burned out. He also told my son this same thing without me there.

 

I mentioned it to my son and I suggested he take his book to the SM and have him double check it. He came out to the car and told me the SM said it was all good and they scheduled a SM conference for a couple of weeks out.

 

The next day I sent the ASM who had approached me an email thanking him for his concern about my son getting burned out, but firmly stated that my son seems to be fine. He responded by saying that most ASMs do not count service projects and Eagle Court of Honors towards this requirement. My son was in an Eagle COH and also assisted in the kitchen prepping the food. He was asked to be in the COH because of the amount of hours he helped with the project.

 

I did not respond to his email, as I felt it would do no good. Well, he mentioned it again at the next meeting and at this point I started to get a little irritated. So I called the ASM that signed my son off on requirement 3. I explained to him that I did not want to use any names and explained the situation.

 

However, he already knew exactly what I was talking about. He said the ASMs son had approached him in the parking lot after a comittee meeting and asked him if he made a mistake signing my son off for this requirement. The scout is my son's patrol leader. My son is the APL. He is also someone my son thinks is one of his best friends.

 

I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

 

1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement?

 

2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months?

 

3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this.

 

We are very invoved in a couple of sports and I see this a lot in sports. I was hoping Scouts would be different.

[shortridge]

Your son should be praised, not chastised. He sounds like an enthusiastic Scout!

 

1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement?

 

Such things are up to the Scoutmaster or his/her designees. If two ASMs are in disagreement, the SM should step in and make it clear.

 

2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months?

 

Not at all unreasonable.

 

3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this.

 

A leader can certainly suggest that a Scout may be doing things too fast and be on the road to burnout. That can be delivered as friendly advice. But it doesn't sound like that was the motivation.

[shortridge]

Sorry, double post.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Twocubdad]

Sounds to me that you have some very good ASMs in your troop and should be thankful that they have your son's long-term interest at heart.

 

Focus on the first part of what the ASM said -- advising your son to take it easy -- not the second half about the details of meeting requirement 3. I think that's just boiler plate.

 

Sure, First Class in six months is doable. But it would be a red flag for me, too. My big concern would be, "what's next." Pound out Star in four months? Eagle a year later? Inside two years in Scouting and your son is "done" with the program?

 

And that's the danger. If your son's focus is on advancement, what's left after Eagle?

 

Your ASM is likely on the right track. The real art in all this is guiding the boys to other activities in Scouting beyond advancement without putting out the flame. That's particularly difficult with a very young Scout as a lot of the options aren't open to him -- Order of the Arrow, High Adventure, Jamboree. There are a number of troops in our area who create "local" age requirements for ranks, or require specific leadership positions for ranks -- all of which is clearly against BSA policy. Policy or not, I think it's a bad idea. Rather than throwing up road blocks, I try to distract boys with activities other than advancement.

 

On another track, you're way too involved with this. You don't want to become one of THOSE parents. Relax and let the troop leaders do their jobs. Maybe this particular ASM didn't express himself very well, but he sounds like a pretty good guy to me.

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

I agree with twocubdad. Quick advancement is doable, but not advisable. Your son will loose alot of what scouting is about, the fun the adventure, the friendships. Leadership POR's can be done at 12 or 13, but the boy will not really understand the role of leadership working with his peers, and older scouts. Some of the value comes when working with the younger scouts. He can't be a leader to younger scouts if he himself is the younger scout. Knowledge is one thing, maturity is another.

 

Also getting Eagle at 13 or so can be done, but is not really seen as something to brag about, simple for the above mentioned reasons. People in scouting will feel the boy got the rank, but missed out on the spirit of what scouting is all about.

 

I do understand though about Adults maybe trying to compare their son with yours and getting competitive. We had that happen with our son. Strangely from the man who was his den leader and had been a good den leader.. When they went into Boy Scouts, my son went up for his scout badge early (all was really learned for the arrow of light).. I think he may have been working well on the next rank. The Father came up to us very upset and stated. "Your son can't be at this level, because my son is not there yet."

 

We left that troop for other reason, but when ever we met up with him he was definately trying to figure out where our son was compared to his son, and still very competitive. Hard to not fall into being competitive with people like this, but the main goal is to make sure the program is working for your child.

 

So please don't get trapped into some sort of feeling you must prove them wrong. Your son should find other pleasures in scouting then just be on an advancement trail. It's the difference of really enjoying his time in scouting, or just going through scouting and getting an award.

[runintherain]

Yes, perhaps I am too involved with this. It bothers me a little when I think my son is being treated unfairly. Time to just drop him off at the meetings.

 

I think I will ask my son how he feels about rescheduling his Scoutmaster Conference until next year.

 

I just found it kind of interesting that the only two people that seem to be so concerned about this are the two ASMs with kids his age. Everyone else has been encouraging him and when he had his tenderfoot Scoutmaster Conference, the SM asked him to set some goals. He set a goal of being a 2nd Class by September and 1st Class by the end of the year (which would be 9 months since he joined).

 

I wasn't there of course, but I assumed the SM was okay with this.

[runintherain]

I feel like I have to add that my son is not on track to be an Eagle at 13 or 14, as some of you keep stating. He only become APL because there was no one else that stepped up (there were only 3 boys from his patrol at the meeting where they decided) and the only 2 merit badges that he has completed (or really even started) are those that were done at summer camp.

 

He seems to have no interest in doing MBs right now. He is just a kid who already knew most of the skills involved, because of the time we spend outdoors.

 

There seem to be a lot of assumptions made that he is not enjoying himself because he is getting things signed off. He has been volunteering for service projects left and right and none of those are needed for advancement.

 

[evmori]

The SM not the ASM is the gatekeeper for the Scout's advancement. Sounds like sour grapes on the ASM's part.

[moosetracker]

It might be sour grapes, it might be that they already got the lecture on not encouraging their sons to take the fast track, but rather slow down and enjoy life. If they are chomping at the bit to motivate their sons, yet having a quarrel with their inner demons, watching a boy take the fast track may make them step in with either a "If I can't do it, you shouldn't either" or just trying to pass on what they have been told.

 

You state service projects, as evidence of having fun. What about camping outings, hikes, snow skiing, fishing. etc...??

 

Of course your son may be one of those rare kids who define fun as a service project, in which case that is just fine. I have one similar, his whole life he felt awkward around kids his own age, and loved hanging out with the adult leaders. His better trips were the ones when the Adult Leaders were more relaxed and not shooing him away from their circle and back to be with his patrol, but he got to hang out and talk with the adults.

 

After he got his Eagle and became a JASM (about 16 1/2 yo), he was in his glory because he got to hang out with the Adults. When there was a possibility that a Venture Crew would be a part of the troop he was very against joining. He definately did not want to be a kid until 21. Forget the "fun" of high adventure, not if he had to give up his acceptance into the adult community.

 

Now at 19-20 he is not happy to be an ASM in the troop, but him and his 19 yo Fiancee have rangled into the Troop Committee (not suppose to be there until 21) and District Committee (can't be member at-large until 21, but they accept him on the sub-committee).. I don't know what he will want to do when 21, and he has no age barrier, to defeat.

 

So if your son considers service projects as "fun" great..

[Twocubdad]

Not making that assumption at all. If anything, I would assume your son is probably having the time of his life. And he may continue with this level of participation and enthuasiasm through age 18. But my experience suggests otherwise.

 

The trick is to guide him to use all this air speed to find a good crusing altitude -- if he keeps going straight up, he's going to stall.

 

Our troop is moving away from the First Year-First Class concept because we're finding that one year isn't long enough to really learn and master all the basic scoutcraft skills. More than that, it makes the calendar the primary metric for determining success. The new Scouts and both the youth and adult leaders are all focused on cramming the program into one year.

 

Were we started to see the cracks in this was in cooking. With 8 boys in a patrol, boy needed to serve as patrol cook as early as their second or third campout, in order for everyone in the patrol to complete the First Class cooking requirement within a year. Consequently we had boys looking to sign on on the requirement the one and only time they had been patrol cook. Where is the time for trial and error? When does the learning take place, when do they have a chance to stretch and grow, and try something new. All the focus was on the requirement and the calendar.

 

Our new mantra is that completing First Class cooking shouldn't be the first time you're patrol cook, it should be the BEST time you were patrol cook. We're trying to apply that philosophy to the entire T-2-1 program. We're telling boys they should shoot for First class sometime during their second year in the troop, at least after their second summer as Scout camp.

 

A side benefit is that it is pushing much of the First Class advancement out of the New Scout Patrol and into the regular patrols. The regular Patrol Leaders now have more responsibility for helping the boys in their patrol advance. That's really boosted the patrol method by giving the patrols a whole new set of activities and reasons to meet.

 

Little of which directly has anything to do with your son. But I hope you will see that there is a bigger picture for both your boy and the troop program as a whole.

 

As to your suggestion that it's time for you to start just dropping you son off at meetings: Frankly, if you're a black or white, all-in or nothing kind of guy, then yes, that is probably a good idea. A better solution would be to find a role in the troop where you can contribute away from your own Scout.

[runintherain]

My son seems to consider any time spent in a Scouting endeavor as fun and that includes service projects. I stated above that he has been on every campout since he has been a Scout.

 

No snow skiing yet, since it is only October. But we have a sign up for one in January that my son wants to go on. I just haven't decided for sure if we can afford it.

 

He just enjoys being around other Scouts. I could see someone being concerned about him going too fast if he walked around miserable.

 

But every Scout activity I have been with him at, he has a huge smile on his face. Maybe he acts differently when I am not around.

[EagleBeaver]

I've got two scouts in the troop this year flying through the requirements, but they invite their entire patrol to join them whenever they do anything for advancement. Yesterday, four of their patrol led me on a 5-mile hike - it was great! They'll finish 2nd Class requirements this weekend and 1st Class probably by January. I wouldn't dare tell them to slow down or they'd probably run right over me. :-)

 

Your questions:

1. There are too many possibilities to have a definitive list. We use any activity approved and scheduled by the PLC for the troop, or any activity scheduled by a patrol and approved by the Scoutmaster. We do not use Eagle service projects, other troops may.

2. No.

3. If an adult has a concern, he should go to the person he has the concern with - in this case, the ASM that signed it off. Certainly not to your son. This would get addressed right away if I heard of it happening.

 

I have to believe you are kidding when you mention just dropping your son off and pushing his SM conference out to next year. That would be silly.

 

It doesn't really matter if there are any ASMs rubbed wrong by your son's advancement. No ASM approval is needed. As long as the SM and your son have a good relationship and the SM is ok with your son's advancement, he's got nothing to worry about. If the SM was concerned, he'd mention it to your son.

 

Doing service for the joy of helping, rather than asking how many service hours it's worth, is a great role model your son is being to other scouts. Pitching in to help with his fellow scout's CoH is super. Completing all the requirements to earn Eagle by 14 is a great goal for a motivated scout, nothing wrong with it.

 

You could show your son all the other BSA awards in the back of the "2010 Boy Scout Requirements" booklet. It's important to know that the Eagle rank is not the end of scouting and there's lots of other fun things to shoot for. The new "National Outdoor Badges" might be right down his alley, or a pile of "Eagle Palms". "Paul Bunyan Woodsman", "William T. Hornaday", and others include significant service projects.

 

[runintherain]

I didn't think that Boy Scouts was a blanket program that was the same for every scout. There may very well be some kids that need more time to master the skills and there may very well be kids that come to Scouts with most of the skills mastered, due to already having done them multiple times in Webelos or with family on camping trips.

 

I don't understand where the all or nothing approach comes from. And saying that you cannot get signed off on a requirement the first time you do it, seems to be adding to the requirement to me. If you can do it right and well the first time, why punish the scout by not signing him off.

 

The troop we are in does not have a new scout patrol. The boys go right into a regular patrol, so the existing scouts are very happy to have someone else do the cooking and be the grubmaster. My son has been grubmaster 3 times in 5 campouts. (He has been on 7 campouts but one was summer camput and one was a family campout)

[dg98adams]

IMO

 

1) Is there any definitive guide that states what is and is not considered an outing for this requirement?

 

Yes, it's the SM defining it...

 

2) Is it unreasonable for a Scout with a lot of experience in the woods to get 1st Class in 7 or 8 months?

 

No, all progress is/should be individual.

 

3) Is it appropriate for an ASM to tell a Scout to slow down and question something another ASM signed off on? I already feel it is very un-Scout like for his son to be questioning this.

 

No, if the Scout (usually in-Troop) signing the other Scouts requirements off is in question... it's a SM issue.

[OldGreyEagle]

I do not understand why anyone would put roadblocks in the way of advancement. The Scout meets the requirements and moves on. How quickly he meets the requirements depends on his comments and how quickly the troop signs off on him meeting the requirements, that's it

 

Lets see, in a country that is supposed to celebrate individual acheivement, we say hey kid, you are being too sucessful too fast? And we have people who think that's ok?

 

Sorta like Quality Control, we certainly would not want Quality to get out Control, the results would be disasterous(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)