First Class Requiement 3

[moosetracker 132]

There is a difference between quality and speed.

 

If runintherain's son just knows the skills and wants to check those off, then is slowing down to enjoy learning the rest of it and enjoying his time in the troop, all the power to him. If he is running a marathon to finish reach Eagle rank first, he is missing alot of quality.. That is all that is being stated here.

 

It is like comparing two people traveling cross country from New England to California. One does it in 2 1/2 days, not even sleeping or eating, the other does it in a month stopping to enjoy the sights, meet the people, taste the cuisine..

 

Now if you want to say the person who traveled in 2 1/2 days had more quality in their trip over the one who took a month because they got there first.. I will disagree with you.

 

[perdidochas 658]

runintherain,

 

The grubmaster issue we are also noticing. Besides Summer camp, my son has been on two campouts and is planning the third. He was grubmaster last campout, and since nobody else wants to do it, it seems he will be grubmaster this campout. Part of it is being the former Webelos Den leader's son, I guess. Part of it is the reluctance of 6th grade boys to volunteer for work. (in our Troop, we have a new boy patrol. (I'm a committee member, but have only been one since March, so they didn't ask me about it. I think that a better idea is mixed age patrols, but I'm new, and am still seeing how the troop operates.))

[Stosh 3452]

This type of discussion always peaks my interest.

 

One has a scout that is fired up about the program and there are a few concerned that he may burn out. Seriously people, how many people have ever burned out on having a good time?

 

I kinda get a feeling that the two ASM's might be a bit jealous when it comes to their own kids. They have a couple of slugs that are plodding along and comparing them to a thoroughbred race horse chomping at the bit. It's going to be a lot easier to rein in the horse than spur on a slug. (Sorry for the extreme anology, but it does make the point.)

 

Too often rank is viewed as comparable to an "award" rather than a level of training, and this causes way too much angst and wringing of hands.

 

Let's use another analogy.

 

One gets a new ASM on their team and this guy has just come out of Cubbing and is chomping at the bit to get going with the new boys of the troop. As a wise and aged SM, you council the gentleman to first get his YPT training out of the way. Yeah, Yeah, got that done last night, what's next, what's next! So the SM says why don't you wait a bit, practice what you've learned and then in a couple of months you can take the basic adult training. Sure, why not, but why can't I take it right now, maybe yesterday, huh? huh? So the SM calmly tell him that in his best interest they don't want him burning out by being too excited about the program. He reassures the new ASM that in about a year's time he'll have all the training and experience to start working with the boys.

 

Yeah, right. This is going to work????!!!!

 

As long as the boy is having a great time, reviewing his skills because he has already mastered them before getting into scouts, and doing what the book says he needs to do, why would anyone think it would be in his best interest to slow him down and bore him out of his skull?

 

Give me a handful of boys like this and I'll revel in a whole patrol of 15 year old Eagles that are planning their next canoe trip to the Yukon!

 

On the one hand one has some who are complaining about keeping the boys interested in the program and some who are complaining about boys that are too fired up about the program and are on the verge of burning out. One can't have it both ways!

 

Sounds like the SM has a good handle on this boy's progress and is doing it right. Now if the two jealous ASM's quit bickering and plotting, this boy will do great things for the troop. If one has a boy destined and motivated to do leadership, get out of the way and let him do his thing.

 

I have a boy right now that will finish FC in 8 months and has already signed on as a Wolf DC while a TFoot. He has two older brothers in the troop. One is Eagle (JASM, age 15), one is Star (PL/QM, age 14) and this young Tfoot (DC, age 11) is showing signs of being an even greater leader than either of his older two brothers. The father of these three boys is one of my ASM's and is himself an Eagle w/palms and SM experience. Whenever I ask him how his boys are doing, he always answers with a "I don't know, didn't ask them lately."

 

Runintherain, you're son sounds like a spitfire of a scout. You are one lucky man.

 

Stosh

[runintherain 10]

Pridhocas,

 

We actually do not have a new scout patrol. The new scouts are mixed with the experienced scouts. I am watching and learing and have read a few threads on here about that. Even in an existing patrol it seems the younger Scouts are always the grubmaster.

 

I guess I will just have to get used to Thursday night shopping trips at the grocery store. I have 3 more boys crossing over from Cubs in the next 3 1/2 years.

 

Stosh,

 

I will add that my son is doing his DC training right now. He was told that he had to be a 1st Class to be a Den Chief so he missed the training. An ASM is working out an individual study program for him now. He did that thinking he could be my DC for my Bear Den (and his brother's of course). Of course, I thought it would be better for him to do it with someone else and when they said they needed a Web I DC he asked if he could do it.

 

I certainly appreciate everyone's feedback and I try to learn from those I agree and disagree with. We camp as a family, in addition to Scouts and I know there are some advancement items he knows inside and out and some that he has probably forgotten already. I have a Web 2 that was working on Bowline knots and I asked my older boy to show him. He struggled a little with it and it was obvious to me he was not proficient in it. Given enough time I think he would have gotten it, so I challenged him to know it well enough to come to my Bear meeting and teach it to my Bears. We will see in a couple of weeks how it goes.

 

I probably should have told the entire story, but didn't want to be so wordy. The ASM in question who has a son a year older than mine, told me in his response to my email that his son has already completed 15 merit badges at age 12 and is not enjoying Scouts as much. What he doesn't know is that his wife and I had a conversation at a meeting a few weeks prior and she had already told me that she wishes her husband would not push their kids so much to get Merit Badges done. It seemed very disingenous to be worried about my kid, while pushing his own so hard. As stated previously, my son has no interest right now on Merit Badges. He is just about the outdoors.

 

I also wanted to add that my son would probably have never told me about the ASM telling him to slow down. I only knew because the ASM sought me out to tell me he thinks my son needs to slow down. That was how I became involved in it. Not because I was hovering. I wasn't even that worried about it, until the ASM that signed my son off on 1st Class 3 told me that the ASMs son approached him and asked him if he could re-check my son's book to see if he had really earned 1st Class 3. That makes me think that the ASM is telling his son that my son hasn't earned his 1st class.

 

That would be like me, as an ASM and MB Counselor, asking to see his son's 15 Blue Cards and re-checking them. It is none of my business. My son didn't ask him to sign off on anything. His son found out mine was close to 1st Class and made the issue about it, is how it happened from my understanding. If my son came to me and told me some kid didn't deserve something, I would tell him to worry about himself and not others.

 

Thanks for all the replies. The funniest thing is that I know my next son will be the exact opposite next year. He will love the outdoors but won't care one lick about getting things signed off on. My oldest interacts very well with adults and I think that is why this has been easier fot him. My next is very shy and sensitive. And doesn't have nearly the confidence, even though he is a great Scout, Student and Athlete. I hope Scouts will increase his confidence and belief in himself.

[ScoutNut 147]

BSA SPECIFICALLY states that boys advance at their OWN RATE. Neither this ASM, or anyone on this forum, can know, or tell you, how fast your son SHOULD be advancing. That is COMPLETELY up to HIM.

 

Don't worry about the ASM who seems to have a control issue. I would not worry about his son, the PL, either. He is just doing as his dad is pushing him to do. I doubt he actually believes your son, his friend, did not complete requirements. If the ASM ever starts to become an actual problem then talk to the SM about it.

 

You have talked to both the ASM who signed off your son, and the SM. Both agree that your son is doing fine.

 

Your son has talked to the SM and has had a SM Conference scheduled. GOOD FOR HIM! It is NOT for you, or anyone else, to tell your son to postpone that SM conference.

 

Scouting is fun with a purpose. Encourage your son to learn, and have fun, and let him do it HIS way.

 

Good Luck!

[UCEagle72 10]

This is really very simple ... let's go back to the 1936 "Handbook for Scoutmaster's" that Green Bar Bill wrote, and look at what he said on advancement:

 

"The badges which accompany his advancement and which the Scout wears on his Uniform are not to show that he has 'passed certain tests.' There should be no past tense implied! On the contrary, each badge cries out 'I can, right now and here!'

 

The badge of rank worn by a Scout is like the M.D. sign on a doctor's door. It advertises to the world that 'Here lives a man who is prepared to help sick people.' So must the First Class Badge advertise to the world that here is a boy who is qualified to help others as well as take care of himself. It is not to be considered a decoration, but rather a symbol of knowledge and ability."

 

As long as he fulfills that criteria ... then what is the problem?

 

[The Blancmange 67]

On a more fundamental level, an ASM who questions whether a youth properly fulfilled a requirement that was signed off by another ASM or the SM should take that matter up with the SM. If consultation with the SM does not allay his concerns, he needs to go to the committee. The fact that this ASM went to the boy's parents, who have absolutely no say in advencement matters, with the concerns instead demonstrates that the ASM is using this as a vehicle to air some personal gripe with this youth or his family. Totally inappropriate behavior, IMO.

 

[runintherain 10]

Moosetracker,

 

I like your analogy about traveling across country and I think I will tell my son that one to make sure he is appreciating what he is doing. It seems to me he is, but an extra check could not hurt. I want to make sure he is not feeling pressure from me. It will be a good check in myself as well.

 

I do have to say though, there is a third option. Just because someone is traveling slow across country does not mean they are enjoying it or learning anything. They could be staying in hotels and watching TV all night while eating fast food.

[moosetracker 132]

Ahh.. yes.. but my travelors are enjoying the sights, meeting the people and tasting the cuisine.. I consider local cuisine as not McDonalds, and meeting people and seeing sites as not through the local news channel.

 

If your son is ENJOYING what he is doing, and going on campouts and other events for the adventure and not for the sole purpose to knock off a few requirements, then he is probably fine.. You just started out the thread stating your son was trying to make first class in 7 to 8 months.. Just made it sound like your son may have had tunnel vision that scouting was about getting checked-off on requirements and zipping through ranks. Scouting is so much more, the advancement and ranks should be a by-product of the fun..

 

And really you should rethink the need to pull yourself out of scouting. As long as you are with the unit to help and guide every boy who needs guidence and not sole for your son, BSA always needs and can use more volunteers.

 

[runintherain 10]

Moosetracker,

 

That may have just been my poor wording. I did not mean to say that he started out with the goal of 7 to 8 months. It just worked out that way. I said 7 to 8 months because that is the time frame we are in right now, since he joined in March. And he is almost done. The first time a goal was set was when he had his SM conference for Tenderfoot and the SM asked him to set the goals. That was in July.

 

Keep in mind he went to summer camp in June and did the Swimming MB and Mountain Man. Those two events, coupled with his previous camping knowledge covers a lot of 1st Class and 2nd Class requirements. I did not go to summer camp, but I believe the way they do it is to find an ASM at night and demonstrate what you learned to get the advancement signed off.

 

When we started I had no idea about any of this, nor did he. We did attend a wedding the week before he started and he has a Great Uncle and two cousings (all on his Mom's side) who are Eagles. The Uncle is still involved today, long after his son moved on. They all gave him the advice to not wait too long to get moving. He also got that same advice at our most recent campout where he received his Second Class. The outgoing SPL will turn 18 in February and is in a mad scramble to try and earn Eagle.

 

He had told my son good job on Second Class and then he asked my son to see his book. He told my son, look you only have 5 things to get signed off until you can request a scoutmaster conference for 1st class. My son told him that he just wanted to relax and the SPL told him that is what he did after he earned his 1st class and now he is struggling to get done in time, do well in school, have a job, girlfriend, etc.. This story was relayed to my by my son. It was a family campout and I was with my younger boys.

 

Anyway, later in the day the SPL asked him again if he had gotten anything signed off and my son told him no. He asked for his book again and asked my son to tell him the precautions for a Safe Float. This was one of the things he had left to do. The SPL picked this because the previous campout had been a canoeing trip and they had learned this in a meeting. My son knew most of it and the SPL encouraged him to take 10 minutes and learn the one thing he got wrong and go find an ASM and get one thing signed off. He did it and was happy about it. Will he always remember those rules? Probably not every one. I would bet most Eagles cannot recite the rules for safety afloat without a quick refresher. But I know he told me that he was glad the SPL had talked to him.

 

So, perhaps it is a matter of perspective. To someone that is rushing to complete their Eagle by 18, they feel it would be better to start quick and be gung ho.

 

The ASM that signed my son off did tell me that my son mentioned he wanted to be an Eagle by 14. I am not sure where that is coming from. I counciled my son to just take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. But I do not want to tell him not to try for what he wants.

 

But I will keep some of the points you have made in mind, along the way. And I will try and teach him that it is about the journey. I agree with you on that. But as long as he has that smile on his face I do not want to dampen his enthusiasm. If it starts to become a stressful thing, I will step in. I will tell him that he should not share that goal with anyone who will listen.

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

[UCEagle72 10]

Eagle at 14, I can live with (after all, I was one at 14 ;-). As long as they stay active.

 

Heck, after I finished my Eagle, I went to Philmont, earned my God & Country, 30 more merit badges, attended the '73 East Jambo (saw Bill Hillcourt, in person, for the first time), worked on summer camp staffs, and was active in OA at the Chapter, Clan, and Lodge level.

 

I "passed" on being SPL, so a Life Scout could use that for his leadership requirement (we had far fewer POR that counted in those days) and became a JASM. When Leadership Corps started, that was my "patrol." (And we wore the dark green Explorer shirts with our scout green pants.)

 

There is a lot a young man can do after he completes his Eagle, providing a good SM keeps him involved and having fun.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

What a World, we have a gung ho young scout taking heed of advice from a near death bed Eagle and the father has to tell the gung ho guy to watch to whom he shares his goals

 

Is this a tad goofy or what?

[runintherain 10]

My part may have been a tad goofy and meant a little in jest. I have not looked at Scouts as a competition and I hope I never do. I get enough of that hyper-competitiveness from the rumble, tumble, live on the edge world of Junior League Soccer.

 

Perhaps I am being too protective as a Dad, but the thing that really upset me was when I found out that the boy had gone to an ASM to ask him essentially to re-check my Son;s book because he didn't think my son should be a 1st Class Scout.

 

I was kind of curious, so I gently asked my son on the way to soccer. Son, is everything okay with you and x. He replied, Yeah, Dad. X is my best friend at Scouts.

 

I know we have to let the boys work things out themselves, but I think my sons feelings would be hurt if he knew the boy he considers his best friend in Scouts is sneaking around behind his back, even if it is coming from the Dad.

 

So, when I made that comment about not telling anyone it was half in jest and half in not wanting people to tear him down for his goals and dreams. Perhaps the better thing to tell him is to always say it with a smile on his face.

 

I am open to suggestions from any more experinced Dads and Scouters. This kid didn't come with an instruction manual.

[moosetracker 132]

I will agree if possible you shouldn't wait until the week of your 18th birthday. These boys should definately pass on their knowledge to the 15+ boys not to wait to the last minute. A young scout not even a year into the program, and already zipping along, is probably not the audience he should be reaching out to. But, they are young, even at 18, so they will pass on their knowledge to whom ever will listen without thinking of the effect it may have on one audience vs another.

 

As UCEagle72 stated, he finish up at 14, but he stayed in.. So here is another way to take the fast track but still get the true benefit of boy scouts. Problem is if someone is only looking at scouting as a means to the rank of Eagle, they normally take the fast track, earn the award, and move on for two reason. 1) Once they earned the award, since they never learned what scouting was all about, they don't see a need to hang around. 2) Since all they did in Scouting was work for the Eagle Rank, they missed out on the fun, and again see no reason to hang around.

[Stosh 3452]

This only emphasizes the point I made earlier.

 

Is rank an award or level of training?

 

If it's training, the Eagle scout has attained a level of training that allows him to do the absolute ultimate in high adventure.

 

Of course if it's just an award, then get the prize and get out, I'll even hold the door for you.....

 

My boys have picked up on the old nomenclature Parlor Scout. The scout may have all the knowledge concerning scouting skills, but until he gets his butt off the parlor bench, it is in name only.

 

 

 

Stosh