Merit Badge Prerequisites

[Beavah 205]

Yah, figured I'd spin this off from da other thread so it wouldn't be hijacked.

 

What do folks think should be the proper prerequisites for work on different badges?

 

I never did get why they dropped Swimming MB as a prerequisite for Lifesaving MB. That makes no sense to me. Lifesaving MB should have both Swimming and First Aid as prereqs.

 

I reckon it would also be a good idea to have Swimming MB as a prereq for most of da boating badges, eh? Maybe not motorboating, but definitely canoeing and small boat sailing. Those MBs require things like open water capsizes, where yeh need the ability and level of comfort in the water that comes with Swimming MB. That's not the same thing as canoeing activity, which is what da previous thread was talkin' about. But for da MB work, I think Swimming should come first.

 

What do the rest of you feel?

 

I also think that Rifle MB should be a pre-req for both Black Powder and Shotgun, eh? Give 'em solid basics in a more controlled way before yeh move up to bigger firearms and a more open range.

 

Any others?

 

 

Beavah

[Eagle69 46]

I agree with you. Seems like at Summer Camp you had to qualify as a Swimmer before you could get in a canoe for free boating so why not make Swimming MB a prerequisite and for Lifesaving it should be a no brainer. However it makes sense so National wont' do it.

[shortridge 184]

I really, really hate to say this, because it would have affected me - but Camping MB or First Class should be a pre-req for Wilderness Survival. Scouts shouldn't be going out building sturdy shelters and struggling at fire by friction before they even know how to pitch a tent or start a fire with matches.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Before we go on,

 

There is at least one other merit badge that has prerequisites:

 

The White Water merit badge has these:

 

3.Before doing requirements 4 through 13 earn the Canoeing merit badge if you will be using a canoe to earn this merit badge. If you will be using a kayak, earn the Kayaking BSA Award.

[Eagle92 110]

I forgot about WW b/c it didn't exist in the stone ages. You are right.

 

I would also add FAMB for all the boating ones as well.

 

Also I would make FAMB required for First Class, like it was back in the day. I've been involved in accidents as both a youth and adult, where once folks realized I was in Scouting, I was in charge of the FA situation, including one time as a brand new 11 y.o. Tenderfoot scout who had recently crossed over into a troop!

[CalicoPenn 729]

I hope this comes out the way I mean to say it.

 

For the most part, the suggestion, on the face of it, makes sense. Swimming before Lifesaving, Swimming before Canoeing, First Aid before Lifesaving. They all seem to be natural pre-req's, but looking deeper, one has to wonder if that's really the case.

 

Canoeing MB has a swimming test that needs to be passed before doing any of the water portions of the merit badge. Does a Scout taking Canoeing MB really need Swimming MB then? As long as they can pass the swim test of the merit badge, they're ready.

 

Lifesaving MB requires the passage of the 2nd and 1st class swim tests before any other requirements are worked on. Swimming MB or not, they still have to be able to swim in order to complete the merit badge.

 

All the other water sports type merit badges or special badges (Kayaking) also require passing the BSA swimmer's test.

 

There really isn't too much more in Swimming MB as far as swimming goes that isn't already covered in the 1st and 2nd class requirements, and the BSA swimmer's test is sufficient to qualify someone as a swimmer at a summer camp waterfront. Is it really neccessary to know how to surface dive, or swim a competitive swim stroke in order to canoe?

 

Interestingly, Swimming MB IS a pre-requisite for Scuba Diving MB. But then Swimming MB has a few requirements, ether as required for all or as options, that have skills that apply to scuba diving.

 

First Aid MB for Lifesaving MB? Lifesaving MB has first aid requirements that apply specifically to a water rescue situation, including things that are common to First Aid MB. I don't know what the First Aid MB offers that would justify making it a pre-req.

 

Seems to me if you can pass the swim tests, and can swim, it really shouldn't matter if you take Swimming MB or Canoeing MB or Lifesaving MB first.

 

Then I thought Rifle Shooting MB before Shotgun Shooting MB makes sense. (Side note - both Rifle and Shotgun offer an option for Black Powder - there is no separate Black Powder MB as far as I know). So I checked into the requirements. Shotgun Shooting MB has a requirement that the Scout successfully complete a Hunter's Education course. Hmm, thought I - a hunter's education course is usually pretty comprehensive on safety, especially for youth, so is there really a need for Rifle Shooting MB first? I don't think so - safety should be well and truly covered. Ironically, Rifle Shooting MB does NOT require the completion of a hunter's education course - so I guess the question becomes, which merit badge is better for safety training? Maybe Shotgun Shooting MB should be a pre-requisite for Rifle Shooting MB. Of course, Rifle Shooting presents more information about safety on a rifle range, which is a slightly different animal than safety on a shotgun range.

 

So what makes Whitewater MB (or Scuba Diving MB) different? It seems to me that Whitewater MB is building on skills from a previously earned merit badge - and maybe that should be the true measurement of a pre-requisite merit badge - is there a natural skills progression?

 

There really is no skills progression from Swimming to Lifesaving or Canoeing. There really is no skills progression from First Aid to Lifesaving. They may share similar skills, but they don't add new skills to the previous merit badge.

 

Same for Wilderness Survival - it's a completely different animal from camping - it doesn't provide a progression of skills, it provides different skills, though some of those skill may be shared.

 

But there is clearly a progression from Canoeing (Kayaking) to Whitewater - using old skills to build on. Same with Swimming to Scuba - using old skills to build on. So those pre-requisites make sense (at least for Whitewater MB).

 

So I guess that puts me in the "we don't need endless pre-requisites" camp - the merit badges all pretty much stand alone. I'd even argue that making the Swimming MB a pre-requisite for Scuba Diving MB doesn't make much sense either - you're going to have to know how to swim and dive in order to get this badge no matter what - I see nothing wrong with requiring the BSA swim test as part of the badge and adding a requirement on surface dives as part of dive training - which you'll get anyway, Swimming MB or not. If that's the case, then the only merit badge it makes sense to have a pre-requisite for is Whitewater MB - because if you don't have the Canoeing MB or the Kayaking Award, you're going to have to learn all of those skills anyway to earn the Whitewater MB - the BSA would just have to add those requirements in - making for one long list of requirements. May as well get two merit badges out of the deal.

 

As for why the pre-reqisites were dropped? I can't say but I think the merit badge program is better off without them.

 

(This message has been edited by calicopenn)

[Knot Head 10]

I started to write a response but thankfully I read CalicoPenn's post first.

 

I agree with his comments. You dont need swimming before canoeing, rifle before shotgun etc.

 

You do want to master canoeing on flat water like a lake or easy river before you jump into a canoe on white water.

 

[Knot Head 10]

I would add that getting first aid before emergency prep seems a little excessive and not necessary but we earn them in that order in our troop since that is the requirement.

[John-in-KC 311]

T-1: Teach basic skills.

 

S-E: Teach advanced skills using merit badges. First Aid should stay where it is, and not be a reversion to "skill awards."

 

You should not be able to earn Camping MB until you are 1st Class, and then like 1st aid, have to be able to demonstrate T-2-1 skills.

 

Bring Cooking back onto the Eagle required list.

[Eagle92 110]

John,.

respectfully disagree with your opinion on First Aid for First Class. In my experiences, whenever someone knows there is a Boy Scout or Scout Leader around an emergency, they automatically defer to them until paramedics or a MD show up. It is automatically assumed that they know first aid, even if they are an 11 yo brand new Scout as was my first experience. And I had that same experience, being placed in charge of an emergency, several times as a youth, and the only reason why i was put in charge was b/c I was a scout. That's my reason for making it required again for FC

[Scoutfish 16]

While I have no experience with BOY scouts, I am an experienced firefighter/ EMS/ Water Rescue person.

 

On the subject of First Aid...It should be a priority!

 

Let me explain something from when I was taking Emergenncy Medical Technition classes - and during CPR specifically.

 

Our instructor was explaining that many people will not take CPR classes because they are scared they may do something wrong while trying tp perform CPR. The instructor told us it's like this:

 

The person is gonna die. PERIOD! But if you try to help them, they WILL NOT DIE MORE DEAD THAN IF YOU DON'T HELP! ( caps for emphasis)

At best, CPR is only 21 percent effective if administerd in time to a person who is actually gonna benefit from it. And you will break ribs while doing it correctly. You have a great chance of puncturing a lung while doing it correctly.

 

Now, even if you get a bit scared, freak out or are nervouse, ant CPR is better than just staring at them and doing nothingh!

 

So..First Aid? Supposing that a young scout might find himself in a position of needing to help out ( this includes being away from the troop or troop activities) any help can be better than none - even if it just stabilizes a person...or at the very least, calms them( the patient) down.

 

Now, as they approach higher ranks, maybe they will be more proficient at First Aid or perhaps better skilled. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But First aid should never be excluded to any scout!

[Beavah 205]

There really is no skills progression from Swimming to Lifesaving

 

And yet, da American Red Cross Learn to Swim progression does exactly that, eh? It defines a skills progression from swimming to lifesaving, where the top level of da swimming skills progression includes preparedness for Lifesaving. ARC seems pretty competent at this stuff, I tend to trust 'em.

 

There really is no skills progression from Swimming to Canoeing.

 

Yah, except da American Canoe Association's Paddler's Checklist starts with "Be a Swimmer - know the difference between, and when to use, aggressive and defensive swimming". We don't teach that in da First Class requirement, but we do a much better job with Swimming MB

 

Let's take a look at some of da other Swimming MB requirements that apply to paddle sports:

 

* Demonstrating water rescue methods (both how to rescue, and how to be a good "victim")

* Demonstrating ability to swim when wearing clothes, and when using flotation.

* Swim more than the bare 100 yards, with a variety of strokes.

* Know how to handle cold-water immersion.

 

None of those would be present in a lad who had only passed da swim test. Most seem like a pretty good idea.

 

For my part as a canoeing critter, there's a level of comfort with the water that comes with Swimming MB that isn't present with the fellows who only pass the swim check. That allows 'em to be successful with all the in-the-water parts of the badge.

 

There really is no skills progression from First Aid to Lifesaving.

 

And yet all da Lifesaving certification programs that I'm aware of have a First Aid prerequisite or co-requisite, eh? Because to be successful at lifesaving, yeh need to be able to handle the immediate care for the person after yeh pull him or her from the water. Are yeh saying that ARC, ALA, and all those other agencies are wrong?

 

Lifesaving MB requires the passage of the 2nd and 1st class swim tests before any other requirements are worked on.

 

Yah, sure. Except any agency or aquatics person knows that yeh need to be a strong swimmer in order to be engaged in Lifesaving, eh? That's what Swimming MB is supposed to accomplish - being a strong swimmer, who is capable of diving entries and swimming in clothes and swimming with flotation and handling cold water and being able to swim underwater and retrieve objects from depth.

 

Those seem like good prereqs for Lifesaving to me, eh? In fact, I don't think a lad would be successful at lifesaving without 'em.

 

a hunter's education course is usually pretty comprehensive on safety

 

But light on experience. And besides, when yeh read da Shotgun MB requirements, that's one of those "OR" things. Complete a state hunter education course OR obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state and explain 'em. Guess what most lads do when given da easy out.

 

Now I know we keep putting more and more faith in bookwork requirements these days, but I reckon there's something to be said for some practical, hands-on training on a range with a .22 aimed at a static target before handing a lad a 12-gauge and havin' him trying to hit sporting clays. All kinds of practical habits and safety sense yeh pick up hands-on that yeh don't by reading the hunting laws.

 

Just my thoughts is all. I agree with First Aid before Emergency Prep too. How can yeh be prepared for an emergency without knowing first aid?

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Scoutfish 16]

Understand, I was only talking about First Aid, not all the other stuff. In those cases, I do not have an issue with progressive learning or advancement. Kinda like ( in my state of NC at least) you have to have a regular license for at least two years before you can get a CDL. Got to learn to drive a regular vehicle before you drive the 26,000 lb cab and 30,000 trailer.

 

Incidentally, in NC, where I took and passes the Emegency Medical Technition class..it was taught by nurses and Drs that were furnished by the Dept of Environment and Natural Resources;Depertment of Health and Human Resources; Medical Health Board.

 

EXCEPT....CPR, which was always taught by instructors from the Red Cross

[shortridge 184]

Same for Wilderness Survival - it's a completely different animal from camping - it doesn't provide a progression of skills, it provides different skills, though some of those skill may be shared.

 

CalicoPenn - I would normally agree with you, except that several years of teaching WS at summer camp left me very discouraged. I was constantly dealing with brand-new Scouts - 10, 11, 12 - who barely knew how to build a campfire, let alone start one with flint & steel or fire-by-friction. Or first-year Scouts who were afraid of the dark trying to spend the night in a lean-to shelter consisting of a tree trunk and two branches. You ought to have a basic level of familiarity in the outdoors to take WS, and holding Camping MB or being First Class is one way to ensure that.

 

These Scouts weren't the majority, but there were enough of them slowing down the group - and being utterly miserable and discouraged themselves because they knew they weren't able to cut the mustard yet - that I often wanted to go smack their Scoutmasters upside their heads for giving them the OK. IMHO, if you don't have the basic skills, you shouldn't be taking the advanced badges. And WS, if done correctly, *is* an advanced badge. Same goes for Pioneering. If you can't tie the basic knots, you shouldn't be diving in and trying to do lashings and build structures.

 

Should skills competence be addressed by the SM during the MB process? Of course it should. That's where the SM's role as gatekeeper comes into play. But I'm pretty jaded after five years of seeing history repeat itself. I simply don't trust most SMs - or worse, the committee member or brand-new ASM who's designated the "summer camp SM" - to do their jobs in that respect. If beefing up the pre-reqs will accomplish that, I'm all for it.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Eagle92 110]

"Fish,

 

That's b/c us CPR instructors teach the RNs and MDs basic life support, aka CPR.