How many hours for an Eagle project?

[Oak Tree]

Yes, I know the official answer, straight from the Eagle Project workbook: "No minimum number of hours is required."

 

At the same time, that workbook does say that the amount of time should be "as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others."

 

The question is, how does your district interpret that? Could you demonstrate your leadership in three hours? ten? five minutes? forty hours? eighty hours?

 

I will say that our district committee appears to use a rough guideline of forty hours (not officially, of course).

 

What's the range of efforts you've seen approved? How short do you think should reasonably be approved?

 

The vagueness of this requirement gives it flexibility, which we need, but it can also be very frustrating to new people to the program who are trying to figure out what the real, hidden requirement is.

[frank10]

Just for my self, enough hours that if we sit down around a camp fire and I ask you about your project that we will have to add wood to the fire before you run out of info or I lose interest.

 

It's not exact but it works as well as nationals.

[evmori]

The answer is as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others.

 

It really makes no difference how your district interprets it.

[NE-IV-88-Beaver]

Johnny's Eagle Scout project - Build new trail from here to there.

 

Johnny to Dad - "Here are some plans that I found, build this trail for me and let me know when you finish it.

 

Delegating is a style of leadership, but does this satisfy the intent behind the requirement?

 

Johnny has a minimal time investment but a new trail is built leaving everyone satisfied and happy (I was going to say everyone but Dad, but nah, he's happy too because he has a new Eagle Scout in the family).

 

"The vagueness of this requirement gives it flexibility, which we need, but it can also be very frustrating to new people to the program who are trying to figure out what the real, hidden requirement is."

 

Vagueness and flexibility (and hidden requirements, as well) aren't really what we need all the time. Then, if anyone tries to define what is reasonable, they're accused of adding to the requirements.

 

Establish a reasonable "guideline", publish it so that everyone knows what they will be judged against, and be prepared to modify it, if shown the special circumstances warranting it.

 

I know to many that is not going to be a popular statement but it's my opinion. Establishing guidelines so that all may be judged equally is not a bad thing! The lack of communicating what they are, is!!!

(This message has been edited by NE-IV-88-Beaver)

[Gunny2862]

In creating a BSA Service Project, the showing Leadership is a subjective target. There isn't really a quantitative measure.

 

It isn't about the amount of time they show Leadership, it's about the amount of time it takes preparing and performing the project for the observer to observe the Leadership.

 

It's the same as when someone says they want "Quality time" - the only way to really deliver what they are asking for is to spend an amount of quantity time with them until there subjective measurement clock ticks it into the quality time range.

 

Realizing it's a whole different arena, watching non-drill instructors move platoons around, it's a pretty quick read (can be as short as 30 seconds, in other cases it may take longer to figure out that while the fellow may have the skills and the timing down they really aren't "Leading" the platoon thru the exercise - but the Platoon is following the commands out of their own discipline, that may take a longer drill period to discover...) to see who is and isn't proficient in their basic troop handling skills - which is one vector for determining military leadership but still isn't a great read but is a good starting point on who Might be a good combat leader.

 

So it really isn't about the number of hours of duration of the project but of whether or not the Scout is displaying Leadership (and Leading) but also about whether the observer is witnessing it.

 

I wonder if it is possible for a package review to routinely show the Leadership we are supposedly looking for, and also if these District and Council board members wouldn't be better doing their diligence by attending and observing these projects if it truly is Leadership they are trying to determine that the Scout is capable of.

 

Otherwise it's still just a project and paperwork hurdle with varying gates depending on which District's track you are running it on.

 

[Twocubdad]

What I really like to see is a project big enough that takes mutiple work days to complete (work days are usually 4-6 hours). Getting everyone out and motivated the first day is easy. But by the third or fourth day, your friends all feel like they've met their obligation to you and you're have to dig a little deeper to get help. More expansive projects also have a greater probability of running into unforseen problems which require the scout to analyze, adapt and solve.

 

Bottom line -- I want to see a project that taxes a young man's leadership ability, resourcefulness and tenacity. Bolting together two picnic table kits the parks & rec department dropped off won't do that. Building two picnic tables from scratch more likely will. Gunny makes a good point in the parent thread that "demonstrating leadership" means someone else needs to be able to "observe leadership." It takes time to do that.

 

But I'll bite on the hours question, too.

 

In my opinion, a reasonable project should be between 125 and 150 "Scouthours." I make that distinction because a Scouthour is generally worth about 15 or 20 minutes of a manhour.

 

150 hours may sound like a lot, but when you break it down, it's not so bad. Eagle project hours are generally highly inflated. Not that anyone is fudging the numbers, just that the incentive is to capture as many hours as possible. If Eagles were paying their help by the hour, there would be a huge drop in the reported hours. Again, that's not a bad thing, just the way it works.

 

I do this for a living, so I am accustomed to looking at a job and rendering it into labor and material. If I estimate I can do a project myself with one other guy in a day or two (maybe 20 or 30 manhours), it can probably be completed by an Eagle candidate with 6-8 boys over 3-4 work days or about 100 Scouthours. The rest of the time will be in planning. One of the big labor line items is the candidate himself. The Scout usually puts in about a third of the total hours themselves, half of which involves planning, proposal writing, procuring materials and recruit workers, and the rest his actual work on the project.

 

I discount Scouthours because there is a lot of down time involved. The Eagle candidate will probably spend an inordinate amount of head-scratching time solving problems and figuring out what comes next. That'a a good thing. But while he's doing that, he has eight kids waiting, or more likely getting into someting else which require even more time to get them refocused. Guys often have too many helpers on a project, especially in the early going. I counsel boys that they will get more accomplished with four workers on two different days than with 8 kids on one day. I also tell them to recruit specific helpers, not just "y'all come help" announcements which may result in 12 or 15 boys showing up. Depending on the project, a Scout is going to have a hard time keeping that many people productive.

 

Adults add a tremendous amout of hours while (hopefully) contributing little to the project. Two-deep sidewalk superintendants, don't you know. Mom and two sisters bring drinks and snacks to each workday is 2 hours X 3 people X 4 days = 24 Scout hours. I've seen project reports showing 16 hours for big sister taking photos. All of which is fine, but understand when you see a project which took 300 hours to complete, this is where much of the time went.

 

All that said, I don't judge projects based on the estimated hours involved. Again, my brain sorta automatically renders everything into manhours. It's just my way of looking at it.

 

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Beavah]

Generally speakin', in most of da districts and councils I'm aware of a "low end" project from a troop that operates as a bit of an advancement mill is in da 40-50 hour range.

 

Typical are projects in the 100 hour range for an ordinary program.

 

Da strongest, truly youth-led units tend to have Eagle projects come in in the 250 - 400 hour range, just because their lads are so used to leadership in smaller stuff and weekend campouts and such that it takes a project of bigger scope to challenge 'em.

 

A few projects here and there break da 1000 hour mark. That's usually because it becomes sort of a community thing where a lot of folks can contribute independently, but occasionally it's somethin' that an exceptional lad is actively managing.

 

All of that of course is mostly in "scout hours" as TwoCubDad puts it. Ain't goin' to be as efficient workin' with 12 year old helpers as it is with experienced adult workers.

 

Beavah

 

[AG_Scouter]

Speaking as someone that gets this question regularly, let me toss a few points into this, please.

 

1 - A limit on hours is not appropriate. The reason is simple. Troops are different sizes. At least in my council they are. We have troops that have 50 boys that show up week after week. If they all showed up for a morning to someones project, that person would have 200 hours. If that same person were in a different troop and the six boys that regularly attend that meeting helped his project for 4 hours, he'd need nine work days to come close.

 

2 - The point is to show leadership. We look at how many work days, the adult to youth ratio, and where the funds came from for the project. As has been previously stated, "Can the Eagle Canidate get workers to come back?" is a much more important question to me than "Can he hit 100 manhours with his project?" Along the same lines, "Did he really show leadership?" is important and having too many folks that happen to have the same last name as the canidate is an indicator of perhaps not having the leadership opportunities that are needed for this requirement. Then to the thought of money, it has been my experience that boys that take out a withdrawel from the "Bank of Parent" don't have the same experience as those that ask for help from businesses, service groups, church members, or even their friends.

 

3 - I have made presentations and said that 100 hours is a good guide line, but it is not anything that must be. I have seen good projects that blow past that figure. I've seen good projects that don't come anywhere near that number. On the other hand, I've seen very weak projects that come with minutes of exactly 100 manhours.

 

Hope this all helps. It's amazing to me to see how this topic can get all twisted up. Good luck.

[jr56]

You also have to take the individual boy into account. An individual with learning diabilities may be unable to handle as large a project as other boys. That's why the requirement state to demonstrate organizational and leadership skills to the best of your ability.

[Mike F]

Right or wrong, in our District the rule of thumb is 100 hours.

No - it is not a requirement, but if you come in well under this expected number, the BOR will ask a lot more questions about the project.

 

Although not perfect, it's been my observation that number of hours is pretty strongly correlated with leadership effort expended.

 

We had good example recently. The project was marginal, but candidate insisted that's what he wanted to do. Then he failed to adequately plan, coordinate resources, and communicate. At the end of the work days, he fell far short of his plan and had logged only 35-40 hours total. Then he sheepishly expected us to sign his paperwork. Nope. Not due to inadequate hours, but because his lack of planning and follow-through showed he still didn't understand what it took to execute a completed project. With some more coaching and guidance, he pulled it together and crossed the line with pride.

[jhankins]

100 hours is our rule of thumb, too.

 

That being said, we try to encourage the boys to consider all their organizing hours as part of the planning -- phone calls, meeting with the project approval people, driving time, etc... The hours stack up quickly if they really pay attention.

[allangr1024]

When my son went to get his project approved by the district advancement committee, they asked how many hours. He said 70 to 80 for a conservation project at a nature preserve. They said it should be more like 100 or more, and had him write in a pledge to do more than 100 hours, and sign it.

 

I was a bit worried, as hour estimate was based on the number of people we got commitments from to help. Fortunately the troop rallied at the scoutmasters behest, and he got twice the number of people out for the project.

 

But I wonder what would have happened if we had come in under the 100 hours, since it was in his project workbook that he pledged to have 100 or more hours. I do not know if they would have rejected the project when he turned in his eagle paperwork.

[jhankins]

Having a boy sign a pledge to do more than 100 hours?

 

That's some serious appeal fodder should anything happen along the way.

[nolesrule]

My project was fairly small in scale. At first glance, you'd think it might have only taken 50-60 hours. But it topped 120. I don't remember the exact figure. People often tend to only look at the execution phase of the project, but don't forget the design and engineering phase, also known as planning. If the scout is actually developing and leading the project rather than someone handing him one (like what tends to happen with parks projects), there will be significant hours put into that as well.

 

I built shiva benches from wood for use in the Jewish community during the shiva period after funerals (most funeral homes would provide what were no more than cardboard boxes to serve the purpose). Doesn't seem like much. Cut some wood, drill/screw/glue together and sand/finish the pieces. Well, I ended up meeting with funeral homes as well as the ritual committee at my synagogue, did the design work myself, went back to them to get it approved (required 1 or 2 revisions), negotiated which organization would be the receiver/caretaker to ensure they would be used regularly and not just shoved in the back of a closet, solicited funds and finally procured the materials. In all, I met with close to a dozen people (and my mother was always there to drive me around (I was too young to drive).

[evmori]

It's not hard getting 100 hours in a project. My concern is the hours become more important than the Scout's leadership ability. Maybe that was National's concern and that the reason they added the verbiage stating there is no time requirement for an Eagle Project.