theysawyoucomin' Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Star Scout "smith" realizes he has not advanced in the last 3 years as a star. His 18th b-day is 12-27-08. Friday, I get a call asking if we can convene a BOR for Star Scout Smith. Mind you it is 27 June. His SMC will be the same night. Boy tells Dad, "I asked Mr. Guggenhiemer if I could have my SMC a couple of times and he has not gotten back to me." Dad then takes up for the boy and calls Comm members and asks about BOR. The SM is angry. Seems smitty was LYING about asking for the SMC. He never asked for the SMC. Dad is angry , being duped by his angel. SM passes the boy along to the BOR with the charge that the Scout has lied to get his board done in this EMERGENCY manner. Boy admits to lying. We tell him what a stupid thing it is to: wait until the last minute. lie about your Scoutmaster so the boy's difficiency looks like the SM difficiency. That he has 6 months to complete a project and a years worth of MBs We talk to boy for 1 1/2 hours and at 10pm just two hours shy of turning into a pumkin boy passes BOR. Boy displayed tremendous lack of judgement and integrity. Boy will apoligize to SM. Boy had completed requirements and aged about a year and a half in the couple of hours we(BOR --SMC) had him. I mostly passed him on the fact that he realized it was dumb to lie. He completed all the requirements. I also considered the possiblity of the boy saying for the balance of his life, "the Adults didn't pass me so I never got even a chance at Eagle." Now if he does not make it, it will be up to him. I think boy was genuinely sorry. What would you have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Winger Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Probably the same thing. If I was his father, he'd be in bigger trouble at home for lying to me. Then again, maybe the boy was telling the truth and the SM was lying. Hmmmmmmmm....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Don't know that I would have passed him without apologizing to the SM first. Other than that, I think the situation was handled rather well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RememberSchiff Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Thank you for working through this with the scout. I hope he and his family thanks you at some point. What would I have done? I would have added to the drama, spelled out the situation, and had scout plan his next steps during BOR. Maybe you did this. Hold the BOR in a room where the wall clock has been set 10-15 minutes ahead. Start later or run the meeting longer (that was a Friday night) and ask scout to develop HIS plan to be a leader in troop and work towards Eagle in the next 6 months (I would provide calendar and other reference material). This would be reviewed by an openly skeptical Board. Have some discussion over it's merits, give him feedback, glance at clock 11:56, argue some more 11:58, 12:01... (yeah, I miss "24") Then the Board Chairman says 'Well I think we are all agreed. Are we past the deadline? Say, that clock is wrong by my watch. This time we will go by my watch, but the District Eagle Board will not be as flexible. They believe that failure to plan, does not constitute an emergency on their part, consequently they only meet at preset times during the year. As we have demonstrated tonight, the adults in this troop are here to help you, but your future success lies with you completing your plan. Tomorrow is a new day and a good time to start. By your plan we are expecting you in front of this Board in December. Good luck.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny2862 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Sounds like good work to me. Keeps the Scout in play and hopefully he learns a little. I'm not Machiavellian enough to have thought of RememberSchiffs "24" trick in time, but I would have done it if I'd thought of it. Time will tell if the Scout does the work, has he already started/completed his time sensitive Merit badges? Ensure that the promised apology to the SM actually is performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allangr1024 Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Since this involves a "Moral Lapse", I think I would have spent time on the Scout oath and law, and looked for a sincere sorrow on his part, and a fresh aformation and commitment to the Oath. Usually, if this is not sincere, I would not expect the scout to continue with advancement, since it would not appear to be worth it to him, at least in his own eyes. We can do stuff about the moral lapses, but must also temper justice with mercy in the case of a boy in his formative years, so that we allow him room for redemtion. If he were obstinant, I would have advised he not continue until the apology were made and other requirements were met. Unfortunately, our Scouter training and guidelines are not always clear on these subjects. We would hope this kid turns it around and that this was just a blip on his path. But it is really hard to tell. I'm sure a juvenille court judge could tell us that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizon Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 I think the Board did a great job in a difficult situation. They boy has hopefully learned a lesson, and knows that he will have to work 3 times as hard to make up for lost time AND has now been through an inquisition BOR. That SHOULD stay with him for years, and might be one of the most important lessons of his life. He learned that you can get caught, but he also learned that there are second chances for redemption (a key message in the faith of many Scouters). If he had instead been denied in such a way that he would never have a shot at Eagle, the lying would have been forgotten and for the rest of his life he might just remember that he was prevented from advancement. He would not hold himself responsible, just the Troop. That is not a legit response, but a natural one. This way he could be held responsible while still keeping him in Scouting. This boy NEEDS Scouting, and where better to keep working on him than in the Troop. Without this, he would have quit Scouting and the teaching opportunity would have been lost. Sometimes our most difficult kids are the ones who need us the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crew21_Adv Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 uz2bnowl, The position of a Scout leader is not the easiest. The Scoutmaster, the Committee Chair, and the advancement chair probably have the most difficult decisions. I concur with your committees actions. It sounds like your committee did correct by the Star Scout "Smith", counseled him, and given him the final opportunity to finish his trail to Eagle. If your board of review members had decided that Star Scout "Smith" would not currently be recommended for advancement to Life Scout. I expect most forum members and your councils advancement chair would equally accept (although possibly disappointed) a negative decision. It was the Scout who had lied, and had broken the Scout Law, immediately before the SMC and BOR. While a lack of good judgment and morals, has the Scout learned from his error within only 24 hours? Once again, it may be the Star Scout's actions that caused him not to complete the trail, not the committee's actions. Within the last hour, I have withheld an Eagle Scout Application signature (from a Life Scout parent, the Scout was not even present) due to a minor error and a missed step. Our Troop is attempting to do right by the Scout, but in accordance with the Advancement Guidelines and Eagle Scout Application. The Committee has bent over backwards for this young adult, encouraging him to complete a service project since he made Life (four years ago). After years of encouraging our most recent candidate, he decides to do a service project, application, and EBOR in less that 45 days. Similarly, if our troop's current candidate earns Eagle in the next 30 days, its because of him meeting the most basic requirements, and everyone else's hard work. If he does not attain Eagle Scout, it would be due to him not completing each step and procedure. Regarding Star Scout "Smith", what would I have done? Probably the exact same actions as yourself, your Scoutmsater and BOR. Scouting Forever and Venture On! Crew21 Adv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo1 Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I think it was handled well and I probably wold have done the same. BUT, I would keep asking him what happened since his last BOR, why was he so lazy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red feather Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Ditto with the above posts. Having been been with numerous last minute Eagles your response is right one. Some Eagles Fly some Eagles flap. Hopefully this young man will learn how to fly and give back to the troop that it has given him. That is the charge that I would present to him. yis red feather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilLup Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 Interesting thread. Sometimes, we hear of parents who put their kids on "vacations" from meds for summer camp. Then, they don't mention this on medical forms, etc. When the kids goes bonkers, they are sometimes asked"Why didn't you tell us?" and the answer is "If I had told you, you wouldn't have taken him." In this case, I might ask not what we would have done if we were the BOR but rather what we would have done if we were the kid. The choices would seem to be 1) Not put the burden on the SM and take the very large chance that the Committee would say "Sorry, you screwed up, we won't hold a BOR for you." 2) Lie a bit and put a bit of a guilt trip on the SM and the Committee. There is always a chance that they still won't hold the BOR or will flunk me for Life Scout. But in that case, I haven't really lost anything relative to case 1). Either way, I'm out of luck and don't have any chance to make Eagle Scout. No one, not the Scout and not the Committee, knows what would have happened if the Scout had lied about asking for the SM Conference. It would seem that if the Committee had really wanted to "teach a lesson" about being Trustworthy, the only way would have been to fail the Scout and tell him that if he hadn't lied, he would have passed. Would I have done that? I don't think so. I don't believe that advancement and Eagle Scout is the be all and end all of Scouting. Here was a teachable moment in another extremely important part of the Scout Law which, in my opinion, in today's society is very often ignored, trampled and considered a sign of weakness and wimpiness. That point is "A Scout is Kind." The Committee was extremely Kind to the Scout to hold the BOR, to consider him and to pass him. I would not play any games like the one with the clock (although I do think that is rather brilliant.) I wouldn't jerk him around but I would be very straight. In retrospect, I would say something like "We have considered things carefully. We are very concerned about your violating "A Scout is Trustworthy." You may have felt that you had no choice if you wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and perhaps you are right. In that vein, you need to decide if you truly have what it takes to be a Life Scout and perhaps to be an Eagle Scout. You are the one that needs to prove to yourself that you are worthy. We definitely think you can do that, but it is up to you. But we want to lay upon you an obligation concerning another Scout Law. In making our decision, we considered, as adults, our obligation under the Scout Oath and Scout Law. We particularly considered another Law -- A Scout is Kind. We have decided to be Kind to you. We do this to enable you to go forward but also to set an example to you. The obligation we lay on you is the following: At times in the future, you will have power and rights over people. You can make decisions to grant them something they want and to deny it. You will certainly have that right over your children if you are a parent. You may have it in business, in Scouting and in other places. Times may come when you have the right to deny something. At moments like that, we obligate you to be Kind. To be Friendly. To be Courteous. Not to be formal and only to think of the law. Most important, if being Kind requires you to take some kind of personal risk and to risk criticism not of the person but of yourself for being Kind, still to follow that difficult Law "A Scout is Kind." (Depending upon your political beliefs, you might add) You will see examples of the opposite in "zero tolerance" policies and procedures. There is no mercy shown and no consideration given of the person, of motivation, or of circumstances. Zero tolerance makes it easy for the person in charge. The person in charge can be a coward and hide behind the zero tolerance policy. And a Scout cannot be a coward. A Scout is Brave. A Scout is Kind. This, among other things, is now your obligation - A Scout is Kind. Will you accept this obligation?" At least in retrospect, I think that's how I might have handled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theysawyoucomin' Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 UPDATE 10 or 11 days later "Smitty" has not yet apoligized to the SM. Now what would you do? The pink advancement sheet has not been handed in. Mind you, the BOR could not have said,"Let's look at this again in 2 months. That perogative was off the table because the boy waited so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theysawyoucomin' Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 UPDATE 10 or 11 days later "Smitty" has not yet apoligized to the SM. Now what would you do? The pink advancement sheet has not been handed in. Mind you, the BOR could not have said,"Let's look at this again in 2 months. That perogative was off the table because the boy waited so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I would have done what I said earlier - have the Scout apologize to the SM before ever signing off on the BOR! This can still be done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoutmomma Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 10 or 11 days later "Smitty" has not yet apoligized to the SM. Now what would you do? Perhaps contact the Scout and ask him directly when he plans to fulfill his promise to the Board to apologize to the SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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