How dare I expect too much as an advancements chair! Ready to QUIT!

[CalicoPenn]

Eagle732 - of course you didn't perform that weekend of service for nothing. You performed it because as a member of the Order of the Arrow - the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service - you were living the obligation.

 

If you came away from the weekend with the impression that you performed that weekend of service in order to solidify your membership in the Order as a Brotherhood Member, then shame on the Lodge for not making things more clear. On the other hand, it can be easy to come away with that impression - after all, most Lodges do Brotherhood testing the same time they do Ordeal weekends.

 

Once I became an Ordeal member, I attended every work weekend for my Lodge, because I believed in the importance of service. When I solidified my membership as a Brotherhood member, I continued to attend every work weekend for my Lodge, because I believed in the importance of service. I never had a thought of being honored with Vigil, so I was surprised (and pleased) when I was one of the 14 selected the year I became a Vigil member. One of the things that stood out as I was nominated? I attended every work weekend since I beame an Ordeal memmber - because I believed in the importance of service. Once I was honored as Vigil, I continued to attend every work weekend until I headed off to Maine for college. Why? Three guesses.

 

Calico

[Herms]

Joni, don't quit, hang tough! It only takes one person to start a positive change which will benefit the boys in the long run. Like someone else said take it one small step at a time. One other suggestion may be to talk to he Charter Organization Rep about your vision for the Troop.

 

Good Luck.

[acco40]

As others have said, the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program in the troop. However, the Scoutmaster and their assistants do NOT sit on Boards of Review. One of the purposes of a Board of Review is to review the advancement program (not the Scout) and as Advancement Chair you have the credentials to sit and even chair a BOR. If you feel that the Scout should not pass a BOR, due to actions of the Scout himself or the Scoutmaster, you do not have to have the Scout pass the review. You will need to give the Scout specific instructions for what to do to pass the review but you should also provide feedback to the Scoutmaster, Committee Chair and Charter Organizational Representative (and possibly the UC, district advancement chair, IH, etc.) on your perceptions of the troop's (i.e. Scoutmaster's) advancement program.

[Eagle732]

Calico

You are correct, cheerful service. I was kidding about doing it for nothing:)I hope the Scouts today get it, sometimes I wonder. I'm a SM for a troop that happens to be located just a few minutes drive from that same camp. We adopted a camp site and do one work weekend a year there prior to the camp opening for the season.

[SM in NJ]

Acco40, you are correct ... "[T]he Scoutmaster and their assistants do NOT sit on Boards of Review ... f you feel that the Scout should not pass a BOR, due to actions of the Scout himself or the Scoutmaster, you do not have to have the Scout pass the review." This is aboslutely correct - assuming that the individual in question is sitting on the BoR for that Scout. The point that I was making was, that if the Scout had his SMC, the BoR passed him for advancemt and person filing the paperwork did not SIT on the BoR, it is not up to that person to make an individual determination that that Scout should not be awarded his rank based on his/her own personal feelings.

 

As I'd stated - the culture of this Troop needs to be changed and that has to start by addressing the issue at the leadership/committee level.

 

As a further note - while this may be a topic for a new thread ... item 3 on Joni4TA's examples (the MB Weekend) is exactly the reason that I discourage my boys from attending these functions. I've seen far to many "merit badge fleamarkets" for me to lend my support to such an event. Our Troop had an issue 3-4 years ago where a group of our boys went to a merit badge fair - earned a bunch of badges - and at the end of the day it turned out that because the event was so heavily attended and poorly coordinated that a majority of the people signing bluecards weren't even registered mb counselors! There isn't enough room to go into the problems that were caused by this snafu. Suffice as to say from that day forward our Troop has not attended another MB fair as a group!

 

SMNJ

[MarkS]

Joni4TA,

 

While I applaud your enthusiasm for ensuring quality in the advancement process of your unit, Im going to have to agree with others that you need to figure out a non-confrontational approach for working with your Scoutmaster. Im not sure what the BSA Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures, #33088, says but I do know that the Scoutmaster Handbook, #33009C, and Troop Committee Guide, #34505B, both indicate that the Scoutmaster determines who can sign off on advancement and it doesn't necessarily have to be an Advancement Chair.

 

My unit doesnt have an Advancement Chair. We have an Advancement Coordinator that fulfills the roles and responsibilities more closely to the above publications than what you describe as your function. We expect our Advancement Coordinator to encourage scouts to advance in rank, monitor progress and notify the Scoutmaster when a scout appears to be "stuck" in rank, arrange BORs, submit advancement records to council and purchases badges and certificates, provide receipts to the Treasurer for reimbursement as required, provide a report at each Troop Committee meeting, provide merit badge counselor information to the troop Librarian, and work with the troop Scribe in maintaining the advancement records of the troop membership in our advancement database.

 

So as you can see, our Advancement Coordinator can not unilaterally say a boy cant advance. Committee authority to withhold advancement is the job of the review board. For merit badges, its the job of the counselor.

 

Regarding your examples

 

Example 1: You state that you "discovered that one boy, who is already O/A, had only been on 3 campouts (one of those summer camp) within the last two years." To me, that statement is open for interpretation. Are those the two years before his election or the last two years including time after his election? As you know, O/A eligibility is 15 nights of camping including one long term camp of a least five (or is it six nights--basically summer camp) in the two years ***prior*** to his election. Im pretty sure that the boy is not required to keep up this level of camping after his election. If he wasnt eligible, you should certainly strive to prevent a reoccurrence of an improper election. However, you also state that he didnt deserve his 21+ merit badges. I doubt very much that theres a conspiracy among the 21 or so counselors who signed off on those badges.

 

Example 2: Yes, the BOR is the place to address quality control for advancement but as others have said, it's not a retest. Additionally, the board must come to a consensus on whether the boy completed the requirements. It's not the decision of one person.

 

Example 3: This is a Scout Oath/Law (ethics) behavior and discipline issue. Not a merit badge issue. Only the merit badge counselor can determine if the boy successfully completed the requirements of the badge. Checking the Skating MB pamphlet, I see no requirement to attend the full eight hours of an eight hour class. Behavior and discipline falls under the responsibility of the Scoutmaster, not the committe, and certainly not the Advancement Chair.

 

You asked if you're losing your mind. No, I wouldnt say that but you might be losing sight of the big picture. It's the boy's program and advancement is one of eight methods of scouting. As long as a unit strives to let the boy's lead and implement all eight methods as much of the program as possible, there will be inefficiencies and problems. These create opportunities for the boys to learn.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Gold Winger]

" It just seems to me we diminish the meaning when we make it easier to achieve."

 

That's happening to just about everything in this world.

 

A bunch of Scouts from my son's troop didn't bother to show up for the call out. I asked the chapter advisor what happens with them. He said that they could just show up for the ordeal. No problem.

 

Think about all the "no-cut" teams that exist out there because it is hurtful to tell someone that they aren't good enough for varsity.

 

Look at the way so many Scouts don't know their basic skills at 1st Class. They got there because too many adults figure that the badge is more important than the skills.

 

When I was in high school, honor roll was at least a 3.5 average for the semester (I never got higher than 3.4 :-( ). At my kids' school, honor roll is 3.0 so nearly everyone can brag that their child made honor roll.

 

Yep, too much is being watered down.

[evmori]

Yep GW I agree. Not everyone has what it takes to be on the varsity football team or be an Eagle Scout. Yet mom & dad want it because "it looks good on a college and job resume." Wonder how good it would look if when their little Johnny was interviewed for a college scholarship or job in the real world if when the interviewer found out little Johnny didn't have a clue so he didn't get the scholarship or job?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

why Ed, the recourse would be obvious, sue the Troop for awarding the Eagle without instilling the necessary skills into the scout

[CalicoPenn]

I understand where you're coming from, but the call-out example doesn't help your case. Once the election is held, a Scout has 1 year to attend his Ordeal. There is no requirement that the Scout go through a call-out first. A call-out, while a fine tradition (and one I encourage), is optional.

 

Calico

[MarkS]

My son and I were elected last year and attended not one, but two, callout ceremonies. We attended an out-of-council summer camp and participated in the callout ceremony there and when we got back we attended the callout ceremony at our local council camp (plus the other things).

 

I dont recall attending the local callout (plus other things) being optional. At risk of having someone spin-off another thread, could that be something lodges dictate in their bylaws?(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[NeilLup]

Hello Joni,

 

You have gotten some great advice from other posters. I would only add a few comments about trying to create a culture change.

 

1) The people that are in your Troop are there because they like the culture the way that it is. That means the parents and the youth. There may be some parents and youth who would like, appreciate, and respond to something tougher but not necessarily anything like the majority. If you were to succeed in putting into effect a massive culture change, you might find yourself with a lot smaller Troop. Or alternately, you might find that you have a rather unpleasant conversation with the CC or the COR and are invited to do your Scouting elsewhere.

 

2) That isn't saying that you are wrong. It sounds as if your sons have the real Scouting spirit and have gotten a lot out of the program. Good for them and good for you.

 

3) BP had a saying "Softly, softly, catchee monkey." If means that if you have a thoughtful plan in place and gradually implement the changes you want, you'll get a lot farther and ultimately a lot faster and less frustrated. The other appropriate story is the one of the frog and the pot. If you drop a frog into a pot of hot water, he'll just jump right out. But if you start with cold water and gradually raise the temperature, the next thing the frog knows, he's cooked

 

4) Position of Responsibility is a particularly unfortunate place to draw the line because the guidelines from the National Council make it almost impossible to fail a boy based on POR. They essentially state that if the boy has been appointed or elected to his job, and serves in it for the required period of time, he has met the requirement. No performance requirements can be placed on his service. The guidelines state that for a boy not to receive credit for POR, he must formally be removed from the job. He still gets time credit for the time that he held the job before he was removed.

 

The reason for this, by the way, is that there were a great many cases, particularly for Eagle Scout, where the boy held his job fat, dumb and happy and then, at his Eagle SM Conference or Board of Review, was told that his service was unsatisfactory and was failed. National is saying that there should be no surprises. The requirement is to hold a leadership position and if the Troop is dissatisfied, the leaders should be brave enough to take appropriate action at the time, not when the boy's service is finished.

 

5) There are places where you can enhance the culture "softly, softly." You can, for example, ask the SM to delegate to you the authority to sign the merit badge cards as eligible for counseling. That will enable you to have a much better handle on what each boy is doing and how they are doing it. You can, in that process, be very actively involved in the selection of the merit badge counselors. Or, alternately, you can ask the SM to establish a procedure where you initial the card before the SM signs it. The result would be the same.

 

6) Another way that you can enhance the culture is by improving the quality of instruction of skills, not by punitive actions but by rewards. Ask the SM if you can watch some of the boys instructing and have some little rewards, badges, special neckerchiefs, beads, etc. to give to give to boy instructors that are doing a particularly good job. It could be, for example, that the reward would come when the learner demonstrates the skill to a qualified third party. The idea is to reward the behavior that you do want rather than punish the behavior that you don't want.

 

7) If you can, go to Wood Badge. It will help you and give you skills in dealing with the adults and youth to clarify what you want to achieve and help you get there.

 

8) Understand that a major culture change can require 3 years because that's how long it may take the people who liked and supported the old culture to leave and new people to join.

 

9) Scouting is a journey, not a finish line. That's true for Scouts and for adults. The challenge is how to get to the culture you want; how to make that journey. It will take time, patience and careful planning of your priorities. You need to pick your battles carefully and, hopefully, avoid battles by working in areas where nobody else is active.

 

It's a beautiful thing when it happens. Been there, done that.

 

Best wishes,

 

Neil Lupton

[allscouting]

You can see about having a committee meeting and dicussing it. But as I tell my Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts when they point out that Scouts in other troops are being handed recognitions that weren't earned is don't worry-you know you've earned yours and the ones you earn are going to mean more to you then the one that are given to others.

[Bob White]

Neilups advice is very good except for point #4 which is incorrect. the requirement is that the scout ACTIVELY SERVE not just hold the office. In the Troop Leadership Training Course the Scouts learn the specific expectations of their positions and completes a goal card of things they are going to accomplish during their tenure. It is the adults role to help coach an mentor the junior leader throught the course of his tenure not just hand out POR patches and evaluate the scout at the end of the leadership period.

 

So the measurement of a scouts service is clear and easy IF the adult does their job as a Scout Leader.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[FScouter]

Sounds to me like Neil and Bob are saying the exact same thing. The boy needs to serves in the position, and if he is not serving "actively", the SM either works with the boy to improve his service, or failing that, removes the boy from the position.

 

The result is that when the end of the boy's term comes, he has met the requirement because he only remains in the position and completes the term if he is adequately performing the responsibilities. The SM or other adult cannot go back after the term is over and declare the boy failed.