Scout Not Ready

[OldGrayOwl]

What do you do when a scout has finished everything, but just isn't "there" as far as getting the highest rank BSA has to offer.

 

I have a scout in my troop that has gone downhill very fast and far concerning leadership quality AND scout spirit. He is the type of person right now that you would not want in your troop. He won't help out the younger scouts, is a real determent to the troop and adult leaders at meetings and on campouts. Some have told me to give him his SMC, just to get him out of the troop, but I just can't do that. (I have been SM at this troop for just over a year, I have not had much contact with the boy at all. He doesn't come to meetings or go on campouts very regularly. I gave him other responsibilities to do, but he doesn't do them unless he is really pushed by either me or by one of my ASM's. He makes fun of any and all boy leaders in the troop as well.

 

What do you suggest?

[Beavah]

What do you do when a scout has finished everything, but just isn't "there" as far as getting the highest rank BSA has to offer.

 

My usual advice is "fix how yeh view Star and Life rank."

 

Yeh have to give good feedback to a lad while he's growin', and while he still has time to work on things. Your expectations for Scout Spirit and Service and Responsibility should become clear for Star, and crystal clear for Life.

 

At some level, it ain't fair to the lad to change the rules of the game on him at the end.

 

So yeh might want to let it go.

 

But if not, I think yeh get the CC and the SPL and you have a Behavior SM conference with him. Nuthin' about Eagle, just about expectations and his behavior. Spell out what you've seen, spell out how it hurts the troop, be clear that yeh expect better from him. If his behavior is really that bad, let him know that other adults have suggested that he be removed from the troop because he's so disruptive/such a poor example.

 

The tellin' thing for me here is that you've been SM for a year and seen this goin' on, but you still "have not had much contact with the boy at all." What are yeh waitin' for?! An invitation? Kids slackin' off and acting out are often asking a simple question: "Does the SM care?" Show him you do.

 

Ain't got nuthin' to do with Advancement. It's an Adult Association method issue.

 

My 2cents.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

Sounds like he hasn't "finished everything"...the Scout Spirit requirement hasn't been completed. How has he completed his POR if he doesn't come to meetings?(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Eamonn]

" Some have told me to give him his SMC"

Hate to sound dumb!!

What is "SMC"?

Ea.

[scoutmomma]

What is "SMC"?

 

Scout Master Conference? (as opposed to Scoutmaster Conference)

[OldGrayOwl]

SMC = Scoutmaster Conference. You don't sound dumb if you have a question that you don't know the answer to. This is the same thing that I tell the Scouts in the troop.

 

I HAVE talked to him and told him of my expectations, and he still doesn't seem to care.

 

He finished his POR before I took over. He had said to some of his friends that he wanted to become SPL and then get his Eagle and then quit Scouting since it was becoming boring and lame. He wasn't elected, and that made him a bit on the upset side.

 

He knows what I expect of him ever since I became scoutmaster. I hadn't had much contact with him BEFORE I took over as SM, and he says that it isn't fair that I should expect him to act like a scout since a couple of his friends before him really didn't. The CC and I talked with him in September and he said that he would improve, but he hasn't. If anything, he has gotten worse.

[scottteng]

Fortunately Eagle BOR are not the responsibility of the troop they are held district level or above. I had a young scout tell me just the other night that he did not feel ready for a Tenderfoot board. This young man has been with our troop for 7-8 months and really has a level of maturity that some of our older scouts lack. He suffers from a lack of confidence some of which stem from his father's expectations. I let him know in no uncertain terms that what we were discussing had nothing to do with his dad and only to do with him and his path in scouting and that he should go complete his BOR. The nit pickers will remind you that the requirement states that the scout participate in a scoutmaster conference but that there is no pass/fail component that the scoutmaster approves the scouts advancement. I would suggest that ones reservations could be expressed in the letter of recommendation the scoutmaster will supply to the board. Every person is unique and endowed by their creator with certain traits some of which must be explored by adolescent boys much to the chagrin of the surrounding adults. We must remember it is their experience and their perception of how they are living by the scout oath and scout law that are important. We may consider their judgment flawed, someone else may see the wisdom of their path.

[hotdesk]

In some Districts and Councils the Eagle BOR are the responsiblity of the troop. In our district we have 1 district rep on the Eagle BOR, that's it.

 

I would lay down the exact expectations that you expect him to meet. Explain what he has to change in order to meet those expectations. Give him a deadline to make improvements and meet the expectations. Let me know that if he doesn't meet them or at least make improvements (based on your decision) that you cannot and will not be able to pass him on his Eagle Scoutmaster Conference.

 

We had a scout this past summer (August 2007) ready for his Scoutmaster Conference. In August 2006 our pervious Scoutmaster past away. Our new Scoutmaster had not gotten to know the scout because of his inablity to attend troop functions. The Scoutmaster set an expectation that he attend the meetings that he could for the duration of the meetings. He told the scout that if his attendance did not increase he would not be able to conduct a Scoutmaster Conference.

 

The scout's attendance increased and the scout continues to attend meetings (his 18th Birthday was in October).

[Beavah]

The nit pickers will remind you that the requirement states that the scout participate in a scoutmaster conference but that there is no pass/fail component that the scoutmaster approves the scouts advancement.

 

This is sorta true for da lower ranks, eh? (But not really. )

 

It isn't true for Eagle, though. The Scoutmaster has to sign the Eagle Application expressin' his/her approval of the lad for the rank. The Scoutmaster can refuse.

 

If the Scoutmaster refuses, the scout can appeal to the unit committee. Unit committee get the info and makes the call whether to allow the boy to go to a BOR with their recommendation but not the SM's. If the council does unit-level EBOR's, they'll sometimes do this in the context of an EBOR (to save time), but that's not the formal procedure. Either way, the scout next appeals to the district, who will consider the SM and Committee refusal to sign the application.

 

So this gives yeh 2 "formal" ways to address the boy's behavior. One by the SM, one by the unit committee before it goes higher. Those should be formal, eh? With some time for tempers to cool and people to think in between.

 

Beavah

 

[Lisabob]

Sounds to me like you already know what you want to do, OldGrayOwl. And it sounds reasonable to me that you do it. Lay out clear expectations, continue to give this young man opportunities to meet those expectations, and make it stick. If he chooses to do it, that's great and wish him all the best. If he chooses not to, hey, that's his decision. You can't make him an Eagle Scout, he has to become one.

 

I don't think it does a bit of good for anybody to just hand scouting's highest award to scouts in order to get them out of the door.

[OldGreyEagle]

"...and he says that it isn't fair that I should expect him to act like a scout since a couple of his friends before him really didn't"

 

So he knows how a scout is supposed to act like and knows he and others either have not or are not acting like scouts. Tell the scout if his logic is followed, then once a rule is broken and poor behavior accepted, that there is never any way to right the ship.

 

In these situations, it is necessary for a leader to make a courageous unpopular stand. To say what was acceptable in the past is no longer acceptable. The scout can either become part of the revival of standards and expectations or a statisistic of it. What do you tell the next scout who says, Hey, you let "the scout" skate, its not fair to me, or the next scout or the next. You let the scout know what is expected in no uncertain terms and then follow it. The scout might scream all manner of things, but scouts who are watching the situation will realize the situation a change occurred and will adjust and even if just secretly be happy the ship was righted.

 

Ask the scout, if situations can never be improved, how does anything ever get better? Then tell him what he will do to improve or the consequences of not improving

[scoutingagain]

I think Beavah, OGE and others have given good advice. One question, has the scout completed his project and had it signed off by the contact for the group that will benefit?

 

While you can choose not to sign his application, you should know the scout has the option of submitting his paper work directly to the council and ask for a BOR.

 

We had a case like this where an older scout, on track to earn his Eagle, was not elected SPL as he expected to be. He just sort of dropped out after that, but was not disruptive. He never made it.

 

SA

[Eagledad]

Im with lisabob here. She seems to see something else here.

 

Nowhere in your words do I read that the young man really wants the Eagle. I don't know, but maybe the focus of our replies arent quite on the mark.

 

It sounds more like the problem is you have a scout who doesnt really want to fit in anymore. I agree with setting expectations for him, but Im more of the mind that he needs your expectations of him as a man tens years down the road, not as an Eagle now. For what ever reason, hes floundering in scouts, which maybe means he is floundering in his other life. I know that he is a pain, but maybe there is some way to get him to engage in some small way. Try something else. Think way out of the box. Find something that gets him excited in your troop, whatever that is and see if you can use that to give him some kind of motivation.

 

Sometimes what we do doesnt seem to make a difference. But I think it does even for the ones who seem the most distant. At some point in each of our lives, those who gave something of themselves comes back to give us a boost.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[CalicoPenn]

I wouldn't be so quick to give up on this boy, nor would I be quick to lay out rules and expectations, or give other responsibilities because something very important was missed here by the Adult Leaders (and it's not your fault either - BSA training is pretty good, but it doesn't adequately prepare us for how to deal with emotional issues).

 

This lad expressed that he hoped to become SPL and get his Eagle Scout. Then a barrier was put in his way. He was NOT elected - by his peers - to become SPL. For many lads, this is a heck of an emotional slam and a set back to one's self-esteem. It's likely that in his mind, he was dismissed by his peers as a leader, and as a friend - he was hurt by the people he was growing up with. Now you or I may not see it this way, but it's very likely that he sees it this way. His making fun of the other boy leaders could be his way of trying to get a handle on the disappointment he's probably feeling. A disappointment that is manifesting itself in lack of effort, lack of spirit, and that feeling of malaise towards the unit you're experiencing. Examine what your, and the other Adult Leader's interactions have been with him for the last year - we read that you've spoken with him a few times to set expectations, but have had limited contact. Has the contact with him been empathetic/sympathetic or more of a "get over it already" contact? It may be time to have a noce long chat with him about his disappointment in not becoming SPL, and in finding a way to help him overcome that disappointment. Those other assignments given - were they just given him or were they discussed with him first? For this lad, it may be best to sit down and come to some agreement together on what he can do to best serve the Troop from this point on - get buy in from him on his next assignments.

 

What I would NOT do is have a "behavior SMC" with him and the CC and the SPL (for one, the SPL should never be involved in a SMC, and the CC should not either - this should be a one-on-one conversation between you and the lad). I wouldn't even have a "behavior SMC" with him in the first place because you shouldn't be focusing on the behavior right now but on his feelings towards Scouting and the Unit. Fix that, and the behaviors will follow. I know, sounds hard - and you're not a trained counselor - but you don't have to be - all you have to be is a person willing to listen and willing to help him over the disappointment. So far, he has only heard what YOU expect of him - and that approach might work for some, but it won't work for all. Has he heard what HE can expect from YOU??

 

You have a lad on the verge of dropping out - yet something in the past year has kept him from doing so (my guess - he does want to get his Eagle). What are you going to do to prevent him from dropping out?

 

Calico

[John-in-KC]

OGO,

 

While it's a time to discuss expectations and standards, it's also a time to call in his peers and visit with his teachers.

 

Hormones alone do not explain sudden and massive shifts in behaviors. SOMETHING is going on in this young man's life... something he won't share willingly.

 

Quit worrying about the Eagle. The young man needs you and others like you. Eagle will take care of itself, one way or the other.