Eagle Advancement Questions

[onehouraweekmy]

Here's my problem:

 

I'm CC for a small Troop and we recently had an unpleasant parting of ways with the former SM, Advancement Chair, and Treasurer.

 

Now in preparing for Advancement for an upcoming Eagle, I find that Council only has ONE advancement record on file, for the last Eagle scout we had.

 

None, I say again, none of our boys show any advancement in Council records. The Life scout does have all but three of his blue cards, so hopefully we can convince Council to update his records.

 

1) For purposes of confirming the 21 MBs for Eagle, what information is relied on-- Council records, Troop records, both?

 

2) For the lost blue cards, two of which were earned at an out of state summer camp two years ago, what can be done to verify those badges again for purposes of Eagle advancement?

 

Thanks for any suggestions... (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eagledad]

It's been a while, but Council will accept the Scouts records. The blue card is a little harder. Without any proof, Council will likely ask him to do the MBs again. However, the scout only has to show he completed the items and a simpathetic couselor only needs to talk with him to find that he has indeed completed the badge before.

 

Check the dates and signatures in the scouts books, cards and records to make sure they jive with leadership time requirements. Many times the card dates are when the adult recieved the cards, not the BOR date which is the offical date.

 

Now, I'm assuming that you saying the past leaders didn't turn in advancement records. But just to make sure, I would ask the Council if they keep the hard copies (Green sheets) around just in case. Our council use to do this and we found many records that were not on the computer.

 

Barry

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums!

 

This may not be true for all councils, but ours is notorious for losing records and they are aware of this problem. Over the years I have gained the confidence of the council records people so they are willing to use pretty much any record we can produce in order to correct missing or erroneous records.

Our troop has multiply redundant records. The advancement person keeps an independent computer file on all advancement. There are many programs that can do this, not to mention it being a simple manipulation in Excel.

The troop also keeps copies of all of the advancement forms that go to the council. These forms are the best sources of official information because they are where the council is supposed to get the data in the first place.

Finally, the blue cards or any substitute work fine if there is no other source of information.

If the MBs are earned at an outside council then that camp or council may still have copies of those records. If in another troop, they may have theirs as well. As a last resort, the counselor may remember the boy and feel confident enough to redo a blue card for him.

Failing all of the above, it may require a retake of the MB. Hope this helps.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Crew21_Adv]

onehouraweekmy,

 

Greetings!

 

Great name.. Hopefully no one confuses you for another forum members "One Hour".

 

For purposes of confirming the 21 MBs for Eagle, what information is relied on-- Council records, Troop records, both?

 

I would recommend for the new Troop Advancement Committee member should submit duplicate advancement reports to the local council advancement registrar. The Advancement Committee Member signing these sheets, are verifying the dates and merit badges to be fact.

 

Look at 12 Steps from Life to Eagle, and specifically step 5.

The Life Scout fills out the Eagle Scout Rank Application. Later thru the certification process, the council will certify each date, before the Rank Application is given to the EBOR.

 

Most all Councils have gone to the Scoutnet as their registrar advancement documentation. (A professional software, offered by National to councils, but it was the Councils choice to enroll or maintain their previous databasing. I would expect most but not all councils now use Scoutnet).

 

So for confirming the 21 merit badges, the Council will verify the dates, based off of the Scounet, which is base off your units advancement report.

 

 

For the lost blue cards, two of which were earned at an out of state summer camp two years ago, what can be done to verify those badges again for purposes of Eagle advancement?

 

The three part cards are retained by the unit, counselor and Scout. No part of the blue card is sent to council.

 

This is what I would do. I would review the Scouts handbooks, and request the local summer camp merit badge sessions documentation to verify. I would use these dates to create duplicate cards.

 

Personally, I would wager there are accurate and detailed records that the Summer Camp Program Director would keep, if they have over one or two hundred Scouts completing four to five merit badges each week. That should be about 400 to 1000 weekly. A good Program Director would keep that documentation, for a situation just like your unit's current issue.

 

Good Luck to your Scouts and the Troop!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Beavah]

Yah, onehouraweekmy***. Welcome to da forums, love your handle.

 

Simple, practical answer to your questions:

 

Council records are what counts. Council records are based only on the Advancement Report Forms submitted by the troop (paper or on-line). Blue cards are irrelevant.

 

To get your unit's records up to date, simply fill out and submit Advancement Report Forms with all of this boy's rank advancement and MB's (be sure you put the correct, actual dates on the form for each!!!). It's your call whether yeh take da boy's word on those missin' cards, but I probably would, eh?

 

Submit all the Advancement Report Forms with a brief note that you're updatin' records that your former Advancement Chair failed to submit, and everything will be kosher. Soothe anybody who raises an eyebrow with a tale of people who quit and a promise to do better in the future by submittin' advancement reports every month!

 

Dat should fix it up, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

In my best Sgt. Schultz voice,

"Colonel Klink, I see NOTHINK! I know NOTHINK!"

[FScouter]

Despite an upleasant parting of the ways, I'd first go to the former advancement person, explain the situation, and ask if he would please help by looking through his stuff for any old advancement forms or records that he may have.

[Gonzo1]

onhouraweekmy,

welcome to the forum

 

Makes a great case for keeping copies, scout, advancement chairman, maybe a backup. Our troop uses troopmaster I think.

 

Keep copies.

 

Gonzo

 

[onehouraweekmy]

Thanks for the suggestions... it gives me some roadmap to use when approaching Council.

 

Sadly, our prior AC not only did not submit forms, he did not keep copies... lesson learned, I should have been checking behind him occasionally. Our new guy is totally ignorant of what to do, but that's a good thing, since I can show him the correct way!

 

Thanks again for the ideas!

 

[John-in-KC]

Welcome, onehouraweekmy@@@... Like Beavah, I like your handle.

 

I lament you've had to gain so much wisdom (knowledge with tears) so very fast.

 

Let's start with the Eagle Candidate: Since the badges were earned at Scout Camp, the host Council hopefully has the Lodge Books (which are the source file to the MB Card... at least that's how my Council Camp staff does business). Our Council maintains 7 years of back records ... that way an about to be 18 year old can go to source data when he was 11.

 

Now, let's get on with the business at hand:

 

Your former Advancement Chair found a way to subvert the system: They were getting rank patches without the advancement reports getting to the Registrar. Never condone that again.

When a Scout earns something, it goes on an Advancement Report. Unit keeps a file copy (soft or hard), person turning the report in gets a STAMPED copy, and Council has their copy.

 

BTW, every time I have an Eagle Candidate, I give the SM a "summary advancement report": I cut an advancement report on the Candidate, with all his key dates on it. If Council turns up something missing from their db, the SM/person dropping off the Eagle app has it ready to go.

 

Get your Advancement Coordinator a software package: I happen to like Troopmaster, but there are others available. For your coordinator, find someone who is detail-oriented, and loves kids enough to transcribe info from Scout books to a database.

 

As an Advancement Coordinator, if a kid earned a MB that week, I cut an advancement report. I didn't save up the data, it was too easy to just cut the report. Emailed it to the guy who went to Scout Office, and voila!, we're done.

 

Learn internet advancement, have your coordinator do the same!

 

Now, for the rest of the kids: Go back to their Scout books, MB cards (blue or award) and MB sashes. Re-do the advancement reports.

 

BTW, just after each court of honor, I cut an individual history on each Scout from Troopmaster. I email a copy to the SM and a copy to the CC.

 

Finally, at recharter each year, I ask Council for a copy of the Scoutnet record on the boys. I audit that against unit records.

 

Knowledge is power... but only when it's shared.

 

Good hunting.

[onehouraweekmy]

John-in-KC: Excellent stuff; I'm going to cut and paste your posting and put in the front of the binder I'm preparing for the new AC.

 

I feel rather stupid for letting this situation develop, but I've been putting out several fires, including replacing the SM (former one rarely came to meetings and trips)(and happens to be the father of the AC who messed us up); and the Treasurer (who is wife of the former SM and mom of the AC).

 

We're doing great with a new team, getting to be boy-led and have a great program... just need to get the new folks up to speed.

 

Thanks again for all the help; I'm not panicking anymore!

 

[scoutingagain]

I am the advancement chair for the unit I serve and periodically will check my record against those of the council. Whenever there has been a descrepancy, I have simply resubmitted a troopmaster report with the dates of awards of badges, and the council has accepted that documentation and updated their records. I have never had to chase down scouts for blue cards.

 

If the scout has a MB award card, (not the blue card, but the card that is issued to the scout with the badge) that should be sufficient documentation as well. I tell my scouts to hang onto to those cards, because if there ever was a discrepancy, or they were to change troops those cards document the badge, or rank earned.

 

The final level of documentation would be the blue cards, but there are several levels to go through before you should need to submit those.

 

I can only speak to what my experience has been with our council.

 

SA

[John-in-KC]

SA,

 

The issue is no records whatsoever

 

Nothing at Council.

 

Nothing maintained in the unit.

 

That's why my advice included one of the standard database packages.

[mtm25653]

Does the boy have his rank advancement and merit badge cards (the one's given when he receives the badge, that have a date and SM's signature)? Our troop has in the past had to use these, and council accepted them.

[John-in-KC]

I think we need some clarity:

 

The BSA database of record is called ScoutNet. It's an integrated database that includes membership data, activities participation (at the local Council level), training for Scouters and advancement for youth.

 

There are four interfaces to ScoutNet.

- User accounts. These are held by members of the Professional Service and by employees of the Council.

- Internet recharter: Temporary user accounts are established by the Council for each unit. These accounts are limited in scope to membership input and reporting for charter management purposes.

- Internet advancement: Temporary user accounts are established by the Council for each unit. These accounts are limited in scope to youth advancement input and reporting, and still require hard copy followup.

- Stubby Pencil: The Advancement Report, BSA Form 34403B is the feeder report from the unit to the Council. The Council should never see handbooks, blue cards, rank cards, wall charts, etc... They see a consolidated piece of paper covering 1 or more youth. The signature of the Scoutmaster (and 2 BOR signatures in the case of rank advancement) are the certification that the Scouts named "got it done."

 

Local units use either stubby pencil record-keeping or a commercially available database such as Troopmaster . How units construct and maintain their records is an internal issue, but for the sake of the youth, we must keep accurate records.

 

Beyond all this is the reliability of Council's data entry and management. Others as well as I advocate getting a printout at least annually and auditing what Council has with what the unit has!

 

HTH mtm25653