BOR issue

[CNYScouter]

Every time I seem to get one issue solved another 3 or 4 more immediately crop up.

 

Last night my son was to have his BOR for the rank of Life in the Ship.

It is the first BOR the Ship has had to do for any type of rank (Sea Scout or otherwise).

 

Currently he is only registered in the Ship and not with a troop.

 

One of the ships committee members wouldnt hold the BOR because my son didnt have a Scout handbook with signatures on the requirements.

The Troop the committee member is with requires this.

The Troops we have been with did not. (Right or wrong I had no control over this). This Troop had the attitude that the Scouts will lose it if they are made to keep track so the Advancement Chair kept track.

 

Even after telling him this he wouldnt hold it.

 

It took 2 months for me to get 3 committee members to show up at the same time and now I have to try and get them again a 2nd time to do this.

 

In fact the only record the Troop my son has done most of his advancement with (through Start rank) are dates of the Scouts BOR for rank advancement.

 

I really dont have the time to go with him and back track to fill in all these dates just to please this one person when my son has a record for all his ranks, his service hours worked and his MBs and wont be able to get much more details than this.

 

Considering this Committee Member is the only person besides me with any Scouting experience, I thought it would be a good idea to have them head up this BOR.

With a small size unit its not like we have a large pool of Committee members to draw from for this.

 

I kind of see this as a moot point in that I will be signing off the book and currently my son is the only Sea Scout that can do Boy Scout requirements.

 

At this point he is only 3 MBs and his project away from Eagle and I just cant see the point going through the motions to have me sign off these requirements when the only paperwork that counts is the advancement report we turn in to council - make that I turn into council, as we dont have an Committee member that handles advancement and I will be doing it.

 

As far as the Sea Scout Advancement each Sea Scout has a printout with the requirements that they keep and get signed.

 

Im working to get more Committee members trained in how to operate a Scout Unit and do a BOR, but hes already waited over 2 months and its going to take a few months to get someone trained enough to do a BOR.

 

Where would you go from here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mdutch]

Sounds to me like your son was denied a board of review. Isn't that grounds to appeal to the district? Not sure if this is the best solution, just the only one that came to mind.

[emb021]

You're not clear on what requirements this committee member is expecting in his book. For Life Scout or all his prior ranks??

 

If the first, it should be easy to do. This is important to show he's done his time in rank, held a leadership position (and what), what merit badges he is using, and done the scoutmaster conference. If its the second, I think thats unreasonable. Proof of earning the prior ranks should be his rank cards.

 

 

[TheScout]

Yes, we have to know what he actually wanted in the book.

 

If he wanted to see the Life record with all the dates and signatures, that seems to be like a responsible Board of Review member. I hope they would check to see all the requirements are duly signed off before approving a scout.

[scoutldr]

As we learned in basic training, the signed book is the official record. All other forms of advancement records are just duplicates. The BOR member was within his rights, however the night of the BOR is not the time to spell out expectations.

[TheScout]

It seems a perfectly reasonable expecation to see some proof that the requirements were complete.

[CNYScouter]

I have to say that this Committee member wasn't very clear on he was looking for but it seemed that he wanted everything.

I have no problem if he wants to see a book with his Life rank signed off, but at this point I just see it as unnecessary as my son is the only youth that we will be doing this for and bringing his MB cards and rank cards should be enough.

 

As we learned in basic training, the signed book is the official record. All other forms of advancement records are just duplicates.

 

I have never heard this in all the times I have done SM training.

I think that using the book and having a Scout get it signed off is the way to go but I have met very few troops around here that do this. Neither Troop we were with did this.

Im curious; perhaps someone can tell in what manual or where in the training material it says this?

I have been told advancement doesn't count until the advancement forms are turned in to the council office so it would seem to me that these are the record.

 

As this is the Ships first BOR I guess it does set a precedent that this is what the BOR is looking for.

The Sea Scout manual doesnt have a place to do this but I did find an advancement record to print out and get signed.

Only one of the Sea Scouts have bothered to print this out and approached me to get items signed off so this will require them to do so.

 

I have to say that this Committee member wasn't very clear on he was looking for but it seemed that he wanted everything.

I have no problem if he wants to see a book with his Life rank signed off, but at this point I just see it as unnecessary as my son is the only youth that we will be doing this for.

 

As we learned in basic training, the signed book is the official record. All other forms of advancement records are just duplicates.

 

I have never heard this in all the times I have done SM training.

I think that using the book and having a Scout get it signed off is the way to go but I have met very few troops around here that do this.

Neither Troop we were with did this.

Im curious; perhaps someone can tell in what manual or where in the training material it says this?

I have been told advancement doesn't count until the advancement forms are turned in to the council office so it would seem to me that these are the record.

 

As this is the Ships first BOR I guess it does set a precedent that this is what the BOR is looking for.

The Sea Scout manual doesnt have a place to do this but I did find an advancement record to print out and get signed.

Only one of the Sea Scouts have bothered to print this out and approached me to get items signed off so this will require them all to do so.

 

[evmori]

As others have posted, the Handbook is the Scout's record of completed requirements and it is the Scout's responsibility to keep track of his advancement. There is a grounds for appeal here but there is a good possibility it won't be overturned. A BOR is not a retest. If the BOR has no idea what requirements have been completed, how are they to review them?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutldr]

"Im curious; perhaps someone can tell in what manual or where in the training material it says this? I have been told advancement doesn't count until the advancement forms are turned in to the council office so it would seem to me that these are the record."

 

Sorry I can't quote chapter and verse. Perhaps your council registrar can clarify. I think the point is that if there is ever a dispute or question (such as verifying the Eagle application), the signed book is the final determinant for rank advancements. Advancement "counts" upon successful completion of the BOR. The advancement report just records it in Scoutnet. If the Eagle app matches what's in Scoutnet, your app is approved. If one of our scouts loses a book, we make him get a new one and get everything resigned in the new book. (not redo the requirements, just get them signed). As Ed said, it's the Scout's responsibility to maintain his own records such as book, blue cards, etc. Part of the Advancement method is teaching initiative and responsibility.

 

[ScoutNut]

"It seems a perfectly reasonable expecation to see some proof that the requirements were complete."

 

Not at a BOR it is not. There is no BSA requirement that the Scout MUST present his Handbook to the BOR.

 

From the BSA Board of Review Training -

 

"This review is not and should not be an examination or retest of skills learned. Rather, it is an attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders."

 

and

 

"This can be accomplished by simple questions like "What did you cook for your First Class meal?" Questions like Where and When or How will soon tell the board whether achievements were properly accomplished without actually retesting. It is sufficient to know what a Scout's "camp gadget" was in order to understand whether he had been properly tested on his lashings."

 

and - Possible questions for the Star & Life boards -

 

"- What merit badges did you enjoy, and why?

- What merit badges did you get the most out of, and why?

- How did you fulfill your Swimming (or other merit badge) requirements?

- How did you feel about your leadership position?

- How did you feel about how you exercised that position?

- Did you feel that you accomplished anything in that position?

- What were your frustrations?

- Who do you think is doing a good job in the troop?

- Have you thought about achieving Eagle?

- Have you thought about a service project for Eagle?

- How do you fulfill your duty to God? To country?"

 

As you can see, none of these things require seeing signatures in a book. If the BOR members are unsure of the requirements for a specific rank, they can provide their own copy of the handbook or print off something from one of the multiple websites out there on the subject & bring it along to the BOR for reference material.

 

The handbook has a very specific place in the program for the boy. It supplies information and gives him a trail to follow. The sign-offs etc are for the SCOUTS benefit. How else is HE supposed to track where he is & what he still needs to accomplish? Why is this responsibility given entirely to the Troops adults in your area? How does that help the boys? Do they just float along waiting for the adults to tell them what they should do, when they should do it, & when they are finished?

 

 

 

[TheScout]

"It seems a perfectly reasonable expecation to see some proof that the requirements were complete."

 

"Not at a BOR it is not. There is no BSA requirement that the Scout MUST present his Handbook to the BOR."

 

All I stated was that a Board of Review member should be given proof the requirements were complete. If you read the statement I did not say it had to be done in the form of a handbook.

 

I do not see why you are quoting the proper procedures for questions at a BOR. We all know them and this has been discussed many times before.

 

So are you saying that a Scout can show up at a BOR without presenting proof that the requirements were complete?

 

That would be quite silly. A Tenderfoot could just show up and tell a Board he is sitting for Life? What happens if they approve him?

 

You seem to contradict yourself by saying the Boy should keep responsibility for his advancements and use the book as proof that stuff is done instead of having adults to this.

 

So if adults are keeping duplicate records, shouldn't he show the BOR proof the requirements are complete.

 

I am quite confused by your position.

 

[ScoutNut]

"I do not see why you are quoting the proper procedures for questions at a BOR. We all know them"

 

Obviously not or this would not be an issue.

 

 

"All I stated was that a Board of Review member should be given proof the requirements were complete. If you read the statement I did not say it had to be done in the form of a handbook."

 

The BOR members do NOT need to be given ANY "proof".

 

 

"So are you saying that a Scout can show up at a BOR without presenting proof that the requirements were complete?"

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

 

"That would be quite silly."

 

No, it is not silly. It is part of the "proper procedures" for a BOR. It is NOT up to the SCOUT to present the BOR with any "PROOF". It is the Scouts responsibility to show up to his BOR, neatly attired, & ready to answer questions put to him. You know, those kinds of questions that "we all know" & "have been discussed many times before".

 

 

"A Tenderfoot could just show up and tell a Board he is sitting for Life?"

 

If the BOR members do not know the scouts in their unit, the Troop is not following BSA procedures, the scout is not living by the Scout Oath & Law, & the SM & Troop Advancement Chair are not doing their jobs, I suppose it might be remotely possible this could happen. Heck, there are all kinds of units out there running things their own way, doing all sorts of strange things.

 

 

"What happens if they approve him?"

 

Then the Troop has lots more problems than simply not understanding what a BOR does.

 

 

"You seem to contradict yourself by saying the Boy should keep responsibility for his advancements and use the book as proof that stuff is done instead of having adults to this."

 

No contradiction. If you would re-read my post I stated "The sign-offs etc are for the SCOUTS benefit." It is how THE SCOUT, NOT the BOR, keeps track of what he has accomplished & what he still needs to accomplish.

 

The handbook helps keep the SCOUT organized and on the track the SCOUT has planned for HIMSELF.

 

[John-in-KC]

"It took 2 months for me to get 3 committee members to show up at the same time and now I have to try and get them again a 2nd time to do this."

 

1) It seems to me any Unit Committee which is not able to furnish a BOR for 2 months because of availability needs more members.

 

2) BORs have lots of purposes, including helping the Committee Chair give feedback to the Program Officer, by getting input from the youth.

 

It seems to me there's a need to add a couple of folk to the Ship Committee, in order to support the Advancement Method of Boy Scouting, and the Recognition Method of Venturing.

[TheScout]

"The BOR members do NOT need to be given ANY "proof"."

 

Then how does the Board know a scout has completed the requirements!

 

"No, it is not silly. It is part of the "proper procedures" for a BOR. It is NOT up to the SCOUT to present the BOR with any "PROOF". It is the Scouts responsibility to show up to his BOR, neatly attired, & ready to answer questions put to him."

 

It ha been a while since I read the Advancement Committee Policy and Procedures, but I do not recall a part where a scout has to be "neatly attird" or "ready to answer questions" either. Are you adding requirements? What if a scout is not neatly attired? What if he is not ready to answer questions?

 

"If the BOR members do not know the scouts in their unit, the Troop is not following BSA procedures, the scout is not living by the Scout Oath & Law, & the SM & Troop Advancement Chair are not doing their jobs"

 

I would also say that is not true. If the unit is run correctly, I would say the Committee members would have even less chance to know each scout indivdually. Say a unit is chartered to a Rotary Club. Members of the club should be Committe members. Committee members are not involved in delivery of program. The Rotary members just provide periodic oversight at BORs and attend ceremonies like BORs. Committee members do not have to know the advancement record of each scout to do their job.

 

I think checking to see the requirements are signed off before granting a BOR is doing their job admirably.

 

 

"What happens if they approve him?"

 

"Then the Troop has lots more problems than simply not understanding what a BOR does."

 

That really doens't answer the question. What happens to the scout who has passed his Life BOR but is actually only a Tenderfoot. You said the BOR members don't need any proof to grant a Life BOR.

 

 

"It is how THE SCOUT, NOT the BOR, keeps track of what he has accomplished & what he still needs to accomplish."

 

So again, the BOR can not check the Scout to make sure he actually did it.

 

I still am a bit confused. Why do we have the Eagle Application then. Why don't scouts just show up for their Eagle Board and tell the committee that they have done all the requirements?

[ScoutNut]

In most Troops, run according to BSA policy, the final step before a BOR is convened is a SM conference.

 

This is what BSA has to say about that in their "SCOUTMASTER CONFERENCE TRAINING" -

 

"In the advancement conference, you will assess the Scout's readiness for his board of review and his progress since his last Scoutmaster conference. This should not be a time of retesting his competence in Scouting skills; someone has already attested to that. The Scout must have completed all of his requirements for rank before the conference can take place.

 

It is appropriate to review the Scout's achievements and to discuss them without retesting. Of course, this may be the time for you to check his advancement record for the appropriate signatures."

 

and

 

"The board of review is the final step in the advancement. However, the members of the board of review are troop committee members who might not know the Scouts as well as the Scoutmaster. If a Scout's advancement is to be deferred, that should come at the Scoutmaster's conference. While the board of review is not a rubber stamp, the Scoutmaster should not approve the Scout at the Scoutmaster's conference and then expect the board of review to defer the Scout."

 

 

Once again - this is during the SM Conference - not the BOR.

 

 

 

"I do not recall a part where a scout has to be "neatly attired" or "ready to answer questions" either. Are you adding requirements? What if a scout is not neatly attired? What if he is not ready to answer questions?"

 

From BSA's "BOARD OF REVIEW TRAINING" -

 

"A board can expect a Scout to be neat in appearance and properly uniformed."

 

I am sure there can be exceptions to this, but it seems to me to be good manners and if a scout showed up for his BOR in swim trunks, covered in mud (since we are obviously talking extremes here), as a BOR member I would certainly want to know why.

 

Since a BOR uses questions to achieve it's purpose, if the boy refuses to answer any questions, obviously the BOR can not be completed and should be rescheduled for a time when the boy feels like he is able to speak to them.

 

 

 

CNYScouter - Since the Ship is short on Committee Members, perhaps you could get some of the Committee members from your son's Troop to help out.