desertrat77

It seems the council is out of touch with reality...unfortunately, there are others adopting the same "strategy."

After long consideration, I've written my last FOS check. From now on any time or treasure I donate, as humble as it may be, will be in support of local units only.

Regions + Areas = Mutual Admiration Societies (MAS) MAS = zero value to units

Skeptic, well said. I myself have certainly engaged in some of these behaviors. Yes, I'd say there is a dose of schadenfreude running through these discussions. I'd chalk it up to this: many of us have been loyal to scouting for years. Decades for some. We've done our best to provide a program worthy of the founder's original vision. We've done this despite obstacles put before us by pros, mostly above the DE level, and vols that sit on high level boards. I don't think the upper management of the BSA has been as loyal. Not as loyal as the unit level folks. Despite feedback from

@Cburkhardt, thank you for the insights The initiatives are sound but a phrase keeps ringing through my head: "Too little, too late."

Raising dues last year was a deal breaker for many. Folks in the field didn't like it and said so. Too many financially struggling families. National's response: "Sell more popcorn." Those three words from a "commissioned BSA professional" will go down in scouting history, akin to the equally infamous "Let them eat cake." If the BSA was a sinking ship, the pros in Irving would be figuring out ways to charge people for PFDs and seats in lifeboats, how to bring more seawater aboard, and as the final waters swept across the deck, they'd present each other medals for a job well

Perhaps I missed it.... Are unique BSA trademarks up for liquidation as well? How much is the trademark "Eagle Scout" worth? http://licensingbsa.org/trademarks/

I don't know John, but in the middle of the night, I heard a thumping sound from my footlocker of scouting artifacts...there's at least one red beret in there for sure....

Carebear, I'm sure you recall those red berets made great pot holders, especially when frying bacon in an aluminum Trail Chef skillet. As for what the future holds, I'm of the opinion "so let it be." Let's meet our obligations in a scout-like manner, and then relaunch a program that resembles something Baden Powell and Green Bar Bill would recognize.

@Cburkhardt, thank your for your insights...much to ponder as I begin my evening walk. Regarding council liability: it struck me early on that National's attempt to shield the councils was probably a very small obstacle to overcome. As you mentioned, everything will be on the table, including the last basketry kit.

@TimB, I'm completely tracking with your concerns. In 2018, I worked non-stop to put a crew together for Philmont. Sparing all of the details, we had 3 different crew number changes over time (long story), I went from associate advisor, to advisor, back to associate. We had the minimum crew permitted of adults and scouts from two different councils, three units. All manner of heroic planning and such...then we know how it ended. Season burned out two days from getting on the road. A few thoughts: - I'm familiar with the itinerary y'all selected. As others have mentioned, it's a

Well said; here is a small cut/paste from the article regarding the Scoutmaster training at the U of Virginia: "Specific topics of study were; a Local Organization and its Relation to the Community, Benefits of Scout Work for Boys, Organization and Leadership, the American Boy and His Relation to Family Life, Scout problems and Country Life, and Scout Efficiency and its Relation to Citizenship. Special lectures and demonstrations were also given by experts in the fields of Local Bird and Animal Life, Forestry and Conservation, Local Rock and Geographical Formations, Indoor and Outdoor Pro

I agree! There are two hardworking, thoroughly efficient, long-tenured ladies that are the go-to people on the administrative side of our council office. They get things done right the first time, on time, and know BSA policy to the letter. I don't know their salaries or hourly wage, but we can be sure it isn't much. To me, their labors are worth more to scouting than what any commissioned pro brings (above the DE level).

I agree, but the die was cast decades ago. Changing WB from outdoor skills to White Stag "what's your favorite color," the Improved Scouting Program, First Class in Record Time...these initiatives were launched by people who had no appreciation for what scouting is all about. Scouting is largely run by people who would rather be in the conference room than by the campfire.

The dues increase last fall--and its ham-fisted implementation--was an eye-opener for many unit level scouters and parents. It boils down to "What value am I getting for my dollar?" I think the common answer is "not much." In summary, this is the perfect storm: the loss of membership, financial hemorrhage, bankruptcy, legal fees, budget tricks like mortgaging Philmont and not telling the oversight committee, The Virus, unemployment, local/national/world events, and the list goes on. Crisis can bring clarity. Many people are realizing that when it comes to the resources that are e

Well said, @Eagle94-A1. I'm seeing the same dynamics in my part of the BSA. As I've mentioned before, I was an ISP scout (unwillingly!), red beret and all, and the dreadful program elements you mentioned did occur. I was fortunate that despite being a military brat, the four troops I was in all had traditional programs (camping one weekend a month, twice in December, summer camp and high adventure) and emphasized the old school patrol method. I can't think of any peers from those years that took the easy/ISP way to Eagle. Everyone was experienced in scout outdoor skills and had t

Part II: Let's talk turkey: is the BSA an organization that values outdoor adventure or isn't it? Scratch the surface--right below the rah-rah school talks, glossy summer camp flyers, and our high adventure base advertising--there are very few units that have an outdoor program that resembles anything that Baden Powell or Green Bar Bill would recognize. Or anything that would inspire an outdoor-minded boy or girl to join. Or stay. If the BSA is primarily concerned with "character building" via constant adult supervision, virtual meetings, badge collection, backyard camping an

These National committees, and many at council level, operate in a vacuum. As stated earlier, there are no organizational charts, no rosters, no contact info. The committee members solicit minimal input from the field at large (but perhaps from select like-minded sources), and when a poll is conducted, it is almost always ignored. Yet these committees make recommendations and decisions that impact the entire BSA, publish no minutes, and offer no explanation for their actions. And I'd go so far as to say that until recently, said committee members experience no accountability for their acti

@ScouterStL, welcome to Scouter.com!

I had a four-year gap in scouting, from the time I aged out in 81 till I signed on as an ASM and went to Scout Leader Basic Training (SLBT) in 85. Quite a difference in culture. It was obvious the BSA no longer valued the independent-minded, outdoor-oriented scouter. My training course turned into a 3-weekend grudge match between cadre and those with prior scouting experience. Cadre downplayed the outdoors, patrol method and unit scouting as a whole. The message was a) "We district and council scouters know best" and b) "Do your quaint troop stuff if you must, but real scouting happens at

@Canoeon, welcome to Scouter.com!

Indeed, the ISP was the beginning of the end of scouting. There have been a few gallant attempts to turn the tide, but not enough save the movement. There are too many non-outdoors, risk-averse folks in the BSA who won't be satisfied until every scout, from 5 - 20 years of age, is wearing Tiger Cub Orange and making popsicle stick art, indoors, under the direction of two adults. And folks still wonder why membership is declining.

@CaroltheArky, welcome to Scouter.com!

I think this is not only a BSA issue, but a societal one as well. Information is sent, yet there is no feedback from the recipient whatsoever. No courtesy of a return email, text or phone call. Yet these are usually the same parents that are glued to their mobile phones. They spend a lot of time communicating, but not with the scout leaders that are trying to provide programming for their kids. Tell me to jump in a lake, get lost, etc., but at least send a reply!

@swilliams, thank you for all you are doing for scouting. The posts previous to mine are right on the money: the scouts should figure things out for themselves and develop self motivation. Even if advancement numbers don't meet "the metric" that's okay. The few scouts that are recognized at the court of honor will make the event all the more special. They showed initiative, which may in turn inspire some of their peers sitting in the audience. As a scout who spent a solid year stalled out at Tenderfoot, I recall seeing a JASM being presented his Eagle medal. The cerem