desertrat77

Prairie, if I understand scout history correctly, the old/large neckerchiefs were not rolled. Then placed around the neck, slide goes up, and a slip knot tied near the two ends to keep them together.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Q, not sure on the ref letters--recommend clarifying with your SM or mentor, and they with the council, so you aren't chasing more letters than you need, or providing less. Regarding church attendance: I don't see any issue with the Eagle board. Your belief is the key. Best wishes on your trail to Eagle.

Wearing old school/large size/locally made neckerchiefs is also a great way to encourage the trend as well. They are also more functional than the smaller, made-by-National ones. National has made a centennial neckerchief that is old-school size, I've heard good things about it.

Even if insurance covers you, is it worth the worry that some day, your son might be named in a suit? And if someone does sue, it is worth the time and trouble to deal with court dates, attorney fees, wrestling with insurance companies, etc? To be even more jaded, if the youth org and your insurance agent give you the green light now, there is no guarantee they will stand by you and your son the first time a lawsuit pops up. They might weasel out and leave you holding the bag. And a more important question: what if a skaterboarder splits his skull open on the Eagle project, and he ends up brain dead or worse? Can I live with that? Every one will have a different answer, but if the answer is "Wow, I would feel awful" perhaps a different project is in order. While we can be sued for just about anything, skateboarding parks are inherently dangerous places. Broken bones and such are regular occurrences. They keep emergency room staffs, lawyers, and insurance companies full employed. Disclaimer: I'll freely admit I don't understand skateboarding these days. I skateboarded in the '70s, when the board was primarily transportation, and tricks involved stuff that was all on the ground--zig zagging around papercups, wheelies, etc. Very tame by today's standards. Today's skateboarders seem to spend more time falling off their boards, and picking themselves off the ground. Few know the joy of just riding down a few miles of brand new asphalt road, smooth as silk, bearings/trucks humming...... I'm getting old.

MN Scout is right on the money. Senior scouts lead, and the scouts are always in the outdoors. A successful gameplan for 100 years, and it still works great.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Pete, it sounds like the New Name Committee tried too hard to be inclusive, visionary, purposeful, strategic, etc. The result? It looks like both councils' lineage is obscured. I'll bet you a cup of coffee they will change it to something clearer within a year.

I vote to leave the thread as is. The email was proven false, and if a reader isn't going to spend an extra 30 seconds scanning the thread to comprehend that, then they probably will jump to other conclusions as well.

Miquin, thanks for sharing your memories. It's amazing how strong the scouting spirit can be, even across the decades.

Eagle92, thanks for sharing that story, good news indeed. Also good news that he still fit in his old scout uniform! I've seen alot of Airmen over the years enjoy all that good dining hall food, and four years later they've got a few more lbs than when they started. Not judging, because I know first hand how hard it is to keep in shape.

Brent, I'm completely on board with your assessment. I must admit I chuckled when I read of your request for the older scouts not to take a class right after breakfast. At the camp I mentioned earlier (last session, almost no firewood left)--lifesaving MB was offered once a day, early in the morning. Several of us took it and breakfast was always a disaster--rushed, full of disagreements, poorly prepared, horrible clean up--but we wanted to knock this MB out, so we gutted it out. Otherwise, patrol cooking is the way to go, if at all possible.

Scoutfish, you should wear whatever slide you wish. Yes, it's a uniform, but this is a volunteer organization, comprised of people from every walk of life. Variety is a good thing.

Moosetrack, I understand legal and safety constraints (horsemanship, ect.) Nuke science? I think you are underestimating the intellect and drive of younger scouts. If they can't grasp it, or don't have an interest, they aren't likely to sign up anyway. But for the others--why stifle that zeal to learn? A counselor cannot say "no" based on age alone. They don't have that right. If a younger scout signs on for a MB, and isn't up to the challenge and can't complete requirements, the counselor definitely has the right to say "sorry, I'm not signing you off on that requirement." But to bar the scout from the get-go because of the assumption that on a magic day when he turns 14 (orwhateverage) that he'll be a thoughtful, productive, respectful student of the subject--that's a stretch. To automatically assume a young scout can't tackle a challenging subject isn't fair to the scout. They are far more capable that most adults will give them credit for. (I see this in the military as well--older folks cramp the initiative of newer troops all the time.) After all, we are talking about Eagle required MBs (mostly)--personal management? Environmental science? The citizenship trio? Good grief, let the young scouts knock these things out--while they still care! For some of them, they may never care again!

Greetings motoscout! Are the Eagles registered scouts/scouters? I think that's the key question. If they aren't, the technically correct answer is: they should wear civvies, with their Eagle medal or other Eagle pin on their suit coat lapel/shirt pocket. This might encourage them to register as adult scouters, and to start a new chapter in their scouting journey.

Moosetracker, gotta respectfully disagree--while counselors have latitude on instruction style, format, etc., age is an arbitrary discriminator. Pinkflame: in theory the older scouts might pursue a MB more indepth, but please don't underestimate a motivated younger scout. And speaking from personal experience, both as a scout and scouter, there's no guarantee an older scout will appreciate the MB experience better because of his age. Some of these Eagle required MBs are earned at the last minute by Life scouts, who approach the MB as a squarefiller or obstacle. I don't think anyone has suffered injury from taking a citizenship MB (though I still remember mentally suffering though citizenship in the world but I digress). It's about intellect, following instructions, follow-through, and all the other reasons why MBs teach scouts more than the subject itself.

Pack212, this is the first I've heard of age limits on MBs. I consider this "adding to the requirements." If a scout has the initiative to sign up for a MB, we shouldn't stifle it by saying "sorry you are too young." Scouts will achieve incredible heights if their initiative is encouraged. Age has nothing to do with MB motivation. How many 18 year olds woke up one morning and realized their shot at Eagle had come and gone because they couldn't or wouldn't find the time to do a project, and earn one or two of the Eagle required MBs--usually one of the citizenships, ironically enough. I recommend letting the young scouts pursue those MBs while their interest is still keen. It sure won't increase with age.

SR, I'm glad to hear things work well in your council, good news indeed. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way in other councils, at least the ones I've been exposed to as I move about in the military. When the WB machine starts cranking, the drum beat is loud. Clearly a big deal. And many long-term scouters only come out when it's WB time. The other training courses? Strictly sideshows and square fillers by comparision, at least as far as council/district time and attention are concerned.

Lisabob, good points but a few thoughts: - Getting involved in district and council training cadres is great, but there are many places where you have to have those WB beads to be considered "credible" - National, council, district cadres put their money where they mouth is. Can anyone name another training course that is more heavily resourced than WB? Across the board, WB gets the lion's share of salesmanship, resources, priority. Everything else? A mention at roundtable and a blurb in the district events bulletin. If these other training courses received even a fraction of the resources and stature that WB gets, we'd really have something. Kudu: as always, your vectors are appreciated! I sit corrected on the method/purpose distinction, thanks. Regarding the leadership comment, what I should have added: scouts learned leadership in the field, while learning woodcraft and then teaching it. While White Stag and WB sell leadership theory, I don't see their courses doing much field application. I consider their product lines to be mostly managerial theory instead.

If I'm tracking with you Basement, we're talking about using woodcraft skills for adult training....... - Hiking - Patrol Camping - Patrol Cooking - Various competitions--first aid, orienteering, pioneering, fire building, swimming, etc. Essentially, anything we ask our scouts to achieve, we should be able to achieve it as well. Some have commented that woodcraft is one method of scouting, and emphasis should be placed on the other methods too. While this is true, woodcraft skill has traditionally been the hallmark of a scout. If woodcraft is no longer a prime interest of scouting, then what's the point? Also, the emphasis should be on leadership, with management being the minor consideration. Management teaches us how to build a patrol duty roster. Leadership motivates the scouts to actually perform those duties, and juggle the challenges of ability and motivation. Scouts have traditionally learned leadership skills this way for decades. Proof of the detrimental effects of downplaying leadership and woodcraft? BSA history, '72 - '80.

Basement, as much as I'd love to attend an all-woodcraft course, I too have my doubts about it, for the reason you stated--egos. I think one of the reasons why BSA has moved to management training. On the other hand, leadership, or woodcraft, or anything else in the field, there are going to be people who excel, and people who don't. Every few years, there is a new management theory that becomes THE way--management by objectives, total quality management, and now Lean or Six Sigma. While some of this is no doubt beneficial, if intelligently applied, two traits common to these management theories are the emphasis on committee work (call it what you will, it's still a committee) and universal application (everyone MUST subscribe and apply the theory; fractionalism, ie, disagreement with the management theory = Not a Team Player). We stifle leadership development when we demand that everyone swims in the management pool, with the endless meetings, briefings, and hand holding. Leadership development is a little messy for some. That's why I think woodcraft is down played these days. What better way to learn leadership than when your patrol caught in the pouring rain, dinner fire won't start, morale is low, etc.? At the end, some will rise to the challenge, others won't. However, we live in an age where, in some arenas, discomfort is avoided, and distinctions (someone gets the first place ribbon) are distasteful. Ironically, it's only in these types of messy settings that leaders realize they can lead, and thus hone their skills. Leaders stand out. Managers have stature, yes, but not on par with the leaders. And for some managers, this chafes them deeply. For example, how many of us know anything about the White Stag/WB revisionists that Kudu mentioned in his research? Nice gents, I'm sure, but how did they distinguish themselves? On the other hand, Green Bar Bill is known worldwide. He's a leader. He led from the front, in the field, not in the meeting room. (This message has been edited by desertrat77)

Vicki, charcoal at camp is vastly superior for a number of reason. But wood was that camp's MO at the time. They changed to a mess hall-only option a few years later.

Stosh, it boggles my mind that WB alums from the past have essentially had their credentials revoked. No grandfather clause!?

A couple factors to consider-- - Depends on the camp. If the mess hall is always sub-par, then patrol cooking is the way to go - Depends on the scouts and their goals. If you have a bunch of scouts that want to maximize their MB haul that week, and schedules are tight, mess hall might be best I've done both, and the camp schedule is the biggest variable to me. As a scout, we did patrol cooking at one camp, but we were always in a rush to get to MB classes. Meal times were very short. Attending that camp the last session, the previous seven sessions had picked the forest clean of firewood, and if you had the duty, you were hiking a good long ways to find a few sticks. On the other hand, a camp with a flexble schedule, or with ample time around meals, patrol cooking is best there.

Spc Dimock represents the very best our nation has to offer My deepest condolences

Jblake, I couldn't agree with you more, well said. Only as it relates to donations, I think this is something best done at the scout's place of worship back in town. I've traditionally viewed the chaplain's role in the camp services as his/her ministry to the scouts. Usually there is no overhead to an outdoor service, or the cost is minimal and absorbed by other avenues than passing the hat. I've got to admit my military experiences factor in my opinion as well. I've never seen a military chaplain pass a collection plate at a deployed location either.

Inappropriate. Giving is a hallmark of many religions, true. But I think it's more appropriate for the scout to practice giving at the place where his family worships (for the scouts that practice faith in that manner). If a scout attends a place of worship regularly, there is a bond, a long term commitment. Religiously, socially, financially, these bonds with his place of worship trump a temporary service at camp. I have always viewed camp services as an important but temporary measure while folks are away from home.