acco40

"The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life - what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not." - Baden-Powell quoting Carlyle. "There is no teaching to compare with example." -Baden-Powell Now Eamon, I tend to agree with Sir Robert. I just wish our National Council would put more emphasis on actions and not thoughts when deciding who may or may not become members of this fine world wide organization.(This message has been edited by acco40)

"When you want a thing done, 'Don't do it yourself' is a good motto for Scoutmasters." - Sir Robert Baden-Powell. "In Scouting, a boy is encouraged to educate himself instead of being instructed." - Sir Robert Baden-Powell. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Using my omnipotent powers ... The BSA does not want to eliminate smoking (tobacco use), it wants to eliminate smoking at all BSA activities that involve youth. For those activities that do not involve youth - a designated smoking area, away from the participants (in this case 100% non-youth) is required. Yes, specmeisters use such wording as "shall" but I really see no confusion with the way G2SS is worded but I admit - many do. It is the fault of the reader or the text? I won't go there. Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. (emphasis (bold) is not mine -it is in the G2SS. Bold type throughout the Guide to Safe Scouting denotes BSA rules and policies.) If you notice other areas of G2SS - "Physical hazing and initiations are prohibited and may not be included as part of any Scouting activity. " the term "may not" is used and the term surely does not mean "optional" it is a strict rule forbidding an activity.

Slightly off topic - I'm currently reading a fascinating book - The Radioactive Boy Scout - A True Story of a Boy and His Backyard Nuclear Reactor (a book by Ken Silverstein). The book gestated out of an article in Harper's magazine http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html) I do know that Atomic Energy was a 2004 MB. I'm not sure if the 2005 Requirements book is out yet. Our council does not have a copy yet. According to US Scouts (www.usscouts.org) the Atomic Eneregy MB was not replaced but was RENAMED to Nuclear (not NUKE YA LUR) Science MB. See: www.usscouts.org/mb/mbbooks.html (This message has been edited by acco40)

Sorry, double post.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Take Boy Scout Outdoor Leader training and the use of three wash basins will be burned permanently into your brain. I will send you a personal message (send private message) of a Word file that has the plans for a simple (Webelos could assemble it) pioneering project which is a wash basin (3) stand.

Trevorum, a SM conference for his religious award? I was not aware that a SM conference was needed to earn a religious award. I know that there are many religious awards out there and I am only familiar with a few but ... I won't "coach" or "mentor" or "teach" any of the Scouts (except maybe my own two sons) in our troop on religious matters but I will pose to them questions which may make them think about their beliefs. A SM conference is a good place for that. EagleinKY - yeah, my "prayer service" is a somewhat confusing term. Although I consider my self a Christian, I've attended many "Scout's own" services where references to Jesus Christ are made - specifically in an opening or ending prayer. I cringe when I hear that because I don't think it is appropriate. Not a big deal on the grand scheme of things but still not necessary. When I took Woodbadge training a few years ago (we eat, we mate, we hibernate!) one of the sessions was about formulating a non-sectarian service which I thought was very good.

KoreaScoutter - shouldn't the Scout and not you, request a BOR? When I am finished with a SM conference I (usually) tell the Scout that he is ready for a BOR -but I do not schedule it! That is the responsibility of the Scout. Now, I may inform the committee that in all probability a Scout may be requesting a BOR in the near future but if the Scout does not schedule it, it does not occur. The Scout soon learns that trying to schedule a BOR on short notice a day before a COH is not a good idea.

On a related note, our unit has a "members only" website. Only members approved by the website moderators (currently the SM & CC) may view the site. Therefore, it is not a public viewing area and as such what rules or guidelines would be applicable? The BSA doesn't specifically address that issue to my knowledge. Obviously, a members only website is not great for advertising but the benefit is that it does work very well as a communication tool. The site does include files which contain information about the youth (current advancement records, telephone numbers, etc.) that we would not put on a public site. Currently, only parents of Scouts in the troop are members.(This message has been edited by acco40)

"We have monthly BOR's." There is your problem right there. Who should initiate a BOR? There are two options that are accepted by the BSA. The most frequent option is that the Scout should initiate a BOR for advancement purposes. He should schedule a BOR after he has completed all other requirements for that rank. As a SM, I will participate in a SM conference only for the rank with which the Scout is currently pursuing. That is, I will not give a First Class SM conference to a Scout who is currently a Tenderfoot. The other option for a BOR is one initiated by the Troop (specifically the Troop Committee via the Advancement Chair) to review a Scout, not for advancement, but to encourage, gather information, etc. about a Scout. Although frequently done, a troop should not schedule monthly, quarterly, etc. BORs for advancement. They should be initiated by the Scouts themselves. When done properly, the dilemma of this tread would then not exist.

How about if anyone on this forum gets insulted (or feels insulted), instead of hurling barbs back at the perceived insulter - just turn the other cheek. Long ago, ignoring childish insults was considered the mature thing to do. Nowadays, in this red vs. blue environment it is seen as a sign of weakness to ignore barbs thrown ones way. Oh, how far our society has sunk.(This message has been edited by acco40)

My personal preference is NOT to have a Muslim one week, a Jew the next, a Christian ... A smorgasbord of religious leaders leading prayers service with sectarian prayer is not in the best interest of Scouting IMO. If sectarian prayer or services are desired - a Catholic service, Jewish service, etc. held simultaneously a la National Jamboree is one solution but you will always get a few complaints about the religion not represented. I think it is much better to have non-sectarian services for all. Why not have a service that doesn't mention Allah, Jesus, angels, saints, fatwahs, icons, etc. and one that DOES relate to the Scout Oath and Law - something all Scout and Scouters, by definition, agree on? If we emphasize that with which we have in common and not our individuals beliefs it is much less devisive.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Not to be picayune, but nobody gets "tapped out" anymore. The procedure is called out (youth protection strikes again).

A Clockwork Orange has warped my mind so that "Singing in the Rain" has violent connotations to this day for me. I don't like gratuitious violence in movies, videos, songs, etc. but in some movies, like A Clockwork Orange it is necessary to the movie. Also, movies such at that did not glorify violence - quite the opposite. Many people get upset about sex in entertainment and to a lesser extent violence. I can't fathom why seeing a man get hit in the testicles elicits a humorous response. In today's world, with such massive media exposure via TV, radio, MP3, DVDs, movies, email, www, etc. parents do need to keep informed about what their children are viewing. A computer in a childs room is not a good idea.

Trevorum - I respectfully disagree. MBs have requirements. They must be met regardless of age. Now, the teaching or mentoring approach shown by the counselor (we belong to a council, but we counsel Scouts) may be tailored to the age, maturity and intelligence of the Scout but the requirements are constant. In that respect, I will allow a 11 year old 5th grader to take the engineering MB but I would advise against it.

I don't see how (straight from the G2SS) "Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants." leaves much room for interpretation. I must admit however that as SM, I don't ban smoking from our outings. Parents and leaders who smoke do so out of sight of the youth. Most kids know which parents smoke - their children sure do. Qhat others me is the fact that I may not witness the adults smoking but I'll find behind the troop trailer or on the side of the outhouse, etc. a small pile of butts - yeech! Most adults comply with the "out of sight" preference but the "field strip your butts" doesn't seem to get followed very often. Now about the time one of the parents showed up to our camp site and offered me a beer ... P.S. Yes, the horse is getting raw. However, from my understanding of the English language the word "may" has a few primary definitions: 1a) have the ability to (archaic - now one uses "can") 1b) have permission to (you may go now) 1c) used to indicate possibility or probability (you may be right). Why on Earth would the 1c definition be used in a "rules" guide? I firmly believe that anyone who has a firm grasp of the English language and is not biased by what one wants to believe would instantly recognize that the 1b defiinition applies. My parents taught me the difference between words "may" and "can." When my mother looked at me and plainly stated, "you may not go outside until you finish cleaning your room" she was not giving me options!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Rooster, your synopsis of the UU sounds like the position of the AMA. From a biological POV, what you believe in doesn't matter; just the fact that one does believe in something. Various medical experiments have given evidence to that fact (i.e. the "power" of prayer, etc.).

Answers can be found in the G2SS. As usual, with most BSA publications, the proverbial "What the heck does that mean?" questions arise. While in reality tobacco, in the USA, is a controlled substance (there are restrictions on who may purchase), from a legal standpoint it is NOT considered a controlled substance. Therefore, it is NOT prohibited at encampments or activities wrt G2SS. The G2SS DOES prohibit the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. Let me repeat that for the SLOW - the use of tobacco products are prohibited at any BSA activity involving youth participants. However, when no youth participants are present, i.e. such activities as Woodbadge, training, etc. it states that "All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants." Unfortunately, some have tried to put two and two together and believe that smoking is allowed if it is away from (out of sight) youth participants. This is incorrect. Read the G2SS again - it prohibits the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. From G2SS: The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members. Adult leaders should support the attitude that young adults are better off without tobacco and may not allow the use of tobacco products at any BSA activity involving youth participants. All Scouting functions, meetings, and activities should be conducted on a smoke-free basis, with smoking areas located away from all participants. From the DEA: The term "controlled substance" ... does not include distilled spirits, wine, malt beverages, or tobacco, as those terms are defined or used in subtitle E of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [26 USCS Sections 5001 et seq.].

Why penalize, start the time clock, for a Scout or Scouter who has no idea he is a candidate? Our Lodge, correctly or incorrectly, encourages units to hold elections in January and February. Being youth run, the paperwork seems to go a little slow so they want to make sure no snafus exist for the great majority of Scouts and Scouters who get called out during summer camp (June/July). The Lodge holds ordeal weekends in September and May. Boys may have been elected in Jan/Feb but have no real chance of completing their Ordeal in May of that year because they have no knowledge that they are candidates! The vast majority then get called out in June/July and then experience their Ordeal in September. For those who for whatever reason did not participate in September, the Spring Ordeal is available - less than one year since their call-out but more than one year from their election. In fact, if memory serves me correct - I received a letter in August (a few years ago) relating to me that I had one year to complete my Ordeal. On a side note - for those who plan to attend the National Jamboree, our council is planning on having a calling out ceremony during the May shake-down campout. Those candidates then may participate in their Ordeal in late May and attend the Jamboree as full fledged members of OA. The main reason for this is because many of the boys who are going to attend the National Jamboree may not attend summer camp.

To elaborate on SemperPartus' response see below. I do know that when our troop had activity shirts, troop hats, troop neckerchiefs, etc. made we used the BSA first class symbol (Eagle/shield/fleur-de-lis) with our unit number above and city below. The embroider asked us for written permission from the BSA to use that "logo." One of our troop committee members handled it for me. I'll see if I can find out what she did. COPYRIGHT AND TRADEMARK PROTECTION The trademarks and logos of the Boy Scouts of America are protected by a 1910 act of Congress (36 U.S.C. 27) as well as by a variety of registrations with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. The 1910 act specifically gives the Boy Scouts of America the sole and exclusive right to use its "emblems, badges, descriptive and designating marks" in connection with carrying out its purposes. These and all art or logotypes obtained from the National Council, Boy Scouts of America, are the exclusive property of the Boy Scouts of America and must be used and displayed as shown in this manual or official artwork unless otherwise stated in writing from an authorized officer of the Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they must appear with any ownership symbols exactly as received, and no additional symbols are to appear in connection with them. If the manual or official artwork indicates that the artwork or logotype is the subject of a U.S. Trademark Registration Certificate, then it should appear with the symbol. It is customary that the symbol is used once in the headline of an advertisement (if it is used in an ad or a poster) and then the first time it is used in the text. The symbol is placed on the upper right-hand shoulder of the last letter of the trademark (if it is a word mark) or on the upper right-hand shoulder of the symbol (if it is a design mark) and in a size that is approximately one-third the size of the largest letter or element in the trademark (but never so small that it can't be read). It is also desirable, but not as critical, to place a statement at the bottom of any advertisement or poster that clearly identifies trademarks or design marks of the Boy Scouts of America. This might read as follows: "BE PREPARED is a registered trademark of the Boy Scouts of America." If you have any questions concerning correct trademark usage, please contact the Custom Communication Division at the national office for further guidance.

Blade - what constitutes an election? In our troop, the boys/adult are "elected" in February. They are not "called out" until the late June. They do not become a "candidate" until their call-out, not from the election. Therefore, they have a chance to complete their ordeal (in-council) in either September (about three months after the call-out) or in May (about 11 months after the call-out but a full year and three months after the election.) They are not aware of their election until the call-out.

My wife still has her Oscar de La Renta scarf - official neckwear for female Cub Scout leaders.

The BSA has entered a legal quagmire with respect to their stance on "avowed" homosexuals. What Hunt states is true. (see below) "Applications for leadership and membership do not inquire into sexual orientation. However, an individual who declares himself to be a homosexual would not be permitted to join Scouting. All members in Scouting must affirm the values of the Scout Oath and Law, and all leaders must be able to model those values for youth." Other statements say that homosexual behavior is inconsistent with the values of Scouting, and that "avowed" homosexuals may not be Scout leaders. Now what in the heck is the definintion of avowed? Dan asks the question if starting of a gay alliance organization constitutes homosexual behavior? Of course not. These organizations have been started by many different types of individuals - both straight and gay. I would not consider forming an organization as homosexual behavior. The biggest problem I have with the BSA policy on this issue is that it does not restrict membership due to behavior but because of thought. Thoughts that I believe the individual has no control of. I knew I was heterosexual years before I engaged in any heterosexual behavior. Lets look at a hypothetical situation. A celibate, homosexual, Roman Catholic priest is asked about his sexual orientation by an adult member of his parish. He states that he knows he is homosexual but has never in his life engaged in any homosexual behavior. Is this priest now considered an avowed homosexual? Should he be denied membership in the BSA as a Troop Committee member? Charter Organization Rep? Institutional head? Our youth will judge us by our actions. These actions include what we say. They do not judge us by our thoughts - for those thoughts are only know to God and ourselves unless we we display some discernable actions that manifest those thoughts. (This message has been edited by acco40)

First, the customers have to ask themselves what are they expecting out of summer camp? Last year, our council had a one day forum with the camp director to discuss improvements, what we liked, what we didn't like, etc. about our council camp. Here are a few of the things that I noticed: 1) the primary purpose of summer camp for most adults is so that their boys can earn MBs (ugh! they just don't get it in my book). 2) cost was not much of an issue, most would gladly pay more for better quality 3) a large minority just don't want a "camp" atmosphere and complain about such things as mosquitos, pit toilets, cold showers, etc. (It ain't suppose to be the Hilton!). 4) the boys like to do "stuff" - waterfront, fishing, shooting sports - being the most popular. The goal of earning a MB is not the primary reason to attend summer camp for most. 5) the first week of camp get the best out of the facilities (most clean, well stocked, etc.) but the most novice staff (first week screw-ups, etc.). 6) Summer camp experience is heavily dependent on volume of campers. For example, our troop always goes during the first week and have gone to the council camp for the past five years. The experience is great when the volume of campers does not stress the staff and mess hall. The council office should do more to even out "bulges in the snake" when it comes time to schedule units (i.e. the staff size remains constant but the number of campers fluxuates by over 50%).

Who may sign off on a Boy Scouts rank requirement? His leader. Now, as usual the BSA policy is purposely vague on that issue. His leader may include the SM, SAs, SPL, ASPLs, PLs, Troop Guide, etc. I think that it is very important that the SM and the Advancement Chair see eye to eye on this issue. Some troops have the youth sign-off for other youth. Some have "nepotism" rules. For most requirements the did/did not decision for fulfillment of that requirement is fairly easy. For others, such as what constitutes service, scout spirit, position of responsibility, active participation, etc. judgement (and 99% of the time the SMs judgement) comes into play. Personally, as SM, I have signed off on both of my sons requirements but usually have another adult do the evaluation and my signature is just a formality. I also have my SAs give the SM conference to my sons. I don't need to get to know them better via that vehicle. For the particular case detailed in this tread, I would have no problem with the mom signing off if she had prior approval from the SM.