acco40

This topic has gone all over the map. The BSA is a religious organization (says the BSA and the US judicial system and most intelligent individuals). The argument by the BSA is that your taxpayer dollars don't go to supporting the BSA (i.e. the National Jamboree) but the Department of Defense which uses the BSA (the BSA provides a service) for their training. You may not agree and think that this is a stretch but ... The DoD was sued, not the BSA. Now, for those who get emotional over these topics, don't confuse legal with right/wrong, moral, ethical, etc. While the National Jamboree is "open" to the public, Scouts do get preferential treatment (and in my book they should with Scouts who camp at the Jamboree getting "more" preferential treatment that those who just meander in but that is a different topic altogether). Adults, such as myself who attended in 2005, did not get the same "rights" as the Scouts when it came to participation in the events (and rightly so) even though we paid the same fee to participate. IMHO, schools should not sponsor private organizations period, regardless of their joining requirements.

Cut the thread. :-) Seriously, I've never used the iron on or any type of glue for that very reason.

epalmer84, why would you command your Scouts to "additionally", or "also." In our troop, just like the military, we command our Scouts to go to position #2 (it's two, not too :-) ) I just had a remedial flag etiquette lesson in our troop this week because the boys do get sloppy. They need it at least once a year. Another pet peeve of mind is the command I hear so often "right hand salute" as if there is an alternative left hand salute!(This message has been edited by acco40)

"Officially" and "in the public eye" are two different things. What is your question? When a Scout successsfully completes his Eagle Board of Review, he is an Eagle Scout. The Scout is publicly recognized by an Eagle Court of Honor which may be held months later. Are you really asking when the Scout may wear the Eagle badge? He may wear it immediately after earning the rank. Now, because the cloth badges are sometimes tightly controlled (I can't go to our council trading post and pick up a handful of Eagle rank badges) that is not always possible. But, although some troops don't hand out the badge until the Eagle COH, we do. Now, am I mean if a Scout earns his Eagle rank a day before his 18th birthday and I (the SM) receive his Eagle packet two weeks later and tell the boy he really should wear the knot signifying he earned Eagle rank and not the badge (he is considered and adult)?

Luddites? Troopmaster is a database that holds not only advancement records but tarining, patrol affiliations, birthdates, leadership positions, activities/attendance, OA status, etc. Let's say a Scout has attended five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight based on the attendance records of troopmaster. However, this requirement (2nd Class 2a) has not been signed off in his Boy Scout Handbook? Has this requirement been met? In our troop, yes! What if requirement 2a has been signed off but not recorded in troopmaster? Well, he may have met the requirement but if the troop advancement chair doesn't realize that he has met that requirement, he won't advance! I think troopmaster is a godsend. It does lag the book signings sometimes. The Scouts know that they may have to relinquish their BS Handbook on occasion so that the records in the two "systems" are in sync. With on-line advancement, rechartering, etc. join the 21st century! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I did write it but not today. It comes straight out of our Advancement Guide which I give to all parents. Now, do they read it? Feel free to use whatever you wish.

Short answer, yes our troop does have attendance expectations. Long answer, well first lets look at what the requirements are that may pertain to attendance/participation with included editorial comment that I made and communicated to our Scouts and their families. As Scoutmaster, I run the advancement program for the troop and I feel it is important that I communicate my expectation to the boys. PARTICIPATION Participation is essential to advancement and the requirements are clearly defined in the Boy Scout Handbook for the ranks of Tenderfoot through First Class Scout. Participation requirements for Star, Life, and Eagle are listed, but not as specifically defined. The requirements for these ranks are as follows: Tenderfoot: Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch on a ground bed you have prepared. Second Class: Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. First Class: Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight. Star: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 4 months as a First Class Scout. Life: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Star Scout. Eagle: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout. For the ranks of Star, Life, and Eagle a requirement of be active exists. What does be active mean? It goes beyond just being registered. It means that you are an active, contributing member of your Patrol and Troop. This requirement is explained in The Boy Scout Handbook by TO GAIN FULL ADVANTAGE of all Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun of adventures. If youre there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success. Maybe you are very active in the Order of the Arrow, attending all functions and even serving in a leadership capacity. Your unit leader may not accept that as meeting the participation requirement. Likewise, you may be serving on camp staff all summer and busy during the fall with the start of school, sports, and/or a job. But, if you are not being a participating member, leader and example in your patrol and troop, your unit leader may not accept your performance for this requirement. So what do you do if life has you running a hundred miles an hour? Talk to your Scoutmaster. To avoid disappointment, find out what he sees as acceptable performance before you start working on these ranks. If necessary, use those leadership skills you're developing to negotiate an acceptable arrangement. You'll be glad you did! Also, keep in mind that this time is your window to accomplish all the other requirements. You may wish to take more than four or six months to complete requirements, which is all right as long as you have time prior to turning eighteen. However, at the very least, it is imperative that you not delay in establishing AND writing down your plan to accomplish all the requirements. Generally, to advance, you must participate as follows for the designated 4 or 6 month period: Weekly Meetings: you must participate in more than half of the weekly troop meetings. Campouts: you must participate in more than half of the campouts/outings. Other Troop Activities (parades, fundraisers, service projects, PLC meetings, etc.): you must participate in at least half of these activities. Again, if you cannot meet these participation requirements, for your own benefit, discuss your situation with the Scoutmaster in advance, not after the fact. Again, the above is what we communicate to our Scouts. Do we have attendance requirements? The answer is no (because if we did, that would be adding to the requirements) but we do set a minimum expectation of 50% attendance.

I swear I read somewhere that Scouts were supposed to have, as a minimum, 30 square feet per Scout per tent. However, that is not in the G2SS so where did I read that? The Scoutmaster recommends two person tents but there is no rule about a Scout in a tent by themselves.

Getting back to the original question: What patches may be worn on the red wool Jac-shirt? Owl62 answered Philmont Training Center emblem centered on the right pocket The insignia guide states (under the universal & nonunit insignia section) that the "Philmont Training Center, cloth, Scouter, right pocket of uniform or red jacket" and shows two patches. The patches look very similar to each other. the caption under one is Identification and the other is Conference participants. The one with the Identification caption looks what appears to be Cimmarron Something on the bottom. The other one has Conference on the bottom. I assume the first one is for staff but am not sure. I attended a conference and received a patch for the course I took (Strictly for Scoutmasters) and also a generic PTC patch. The course patch has SCOUTING PHILMONT around the top and STRICTLY SM on the bottom. The center has a picture of the Tooth of Time with the year. My question, may I wear either on the right pocket?

I've bought a pair of the new switchback pants. I like the material and the "style." However, I do have one complaint. I'm short. A 30 inch inseam is to long for me. That is as short as they come. With the zippered bottom they are difficult to hem to a different length. An elastic cuff at the bottom would be a nice feature (or let me special order a 29 or 28 inch inseam. I'll pay the extra cost!). (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

First, I don't think there is a correct or incorrect response. A little background for me. I'm a member of a catholic church but not a member of the Catholic Church. As such, I do not, nor does the Catholic Church allow "non-members" to partake in their sacrements such as communion. Our troop is chartered by an Episcopalian church. The Epicopal Church is like the church you mentioned, open communion. When our troop attended their service (not one Scout happens to be a member of the CO chruch) I took communion. I did it because I had no problem with it from a religious perspective and second, as a guest "did in Rome as the Romans did." My action, as Scoutmaster, showed the boys that it was okay to participate and all did. Like it or not, we are a role model and staying in the pews or not willl influence the action of many of the boys either way. Because the church charters are troop I followed their customs. Not sure if the church your troop attended was affiliated with your troop or not but I would probably taken communion. However, I agree with you that is should not be a big issue either way.

Cotton sleeping pants?

I know all about staying warm in winter. My question is how do you keep your water supply from freezing? Many times we have to carry our water and our 3-5 gal water jugs freeze up at night. Can't really put them in the fire or on the stove to heat them up effectively. Don't really want to run our automobiles either. Any suggestions?

In my council: 1) Counselors in training are 15 yr old (non-paid) and work for two weeks. 2) Camp Counselors - paid staff, need to be at least 16. Area dirctors (shooting sports, waterfront, Scoutcraft, etc.) need to be at least 18. 3) When working on the Wilderness survival MB - our summer camp staff mandates that at least two adults (from the troops of the Scout participants) accompany the youth and counselors on the overnighter (not one of my favorite tasks). The federal government argued that Boy Scouts playing with fire caused a 14,200-acre wildfire and wants a judge to hold them responsible, allowing officials to seek damages. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) or the Boy Scouts who were playing with the fire (Johnny, Mike, Jimmy, etc.)? Big difference. I think there is enough blame to go around. On a similar note, today, where I live, a 21 year old is being released from juvenile detention after serving ten years for shooting someone in the head, killing him, when he was 11 years old. He is the youngest ever to be tried as an adult in Michigan. Should kids be held accountable for their actions?

Right wrong or indifferent, my district advancement chair warns against doing blood drives. Primary reason, difficult to show leadership. As for "lasting", too many think of "things" and not "actions" for ESLPs. I agree that routine labor is out. However, I know a talented young man who organized a group of his friends (mostly out of Scouts but high school age) to work with a senior center (i.e. nursing home) for a six month period. They met at least once a week - sometimes one on one, sometimes with their pets, many were musicians or artisans and displayed/taught their talents, etc. He exhibited leadership, provided a service and it was not "routine" labor. The seniors involved were very appreciative and some of the relationships carried on after the projects "completion." Now, if I could only get my two Life Scout sons to get off their duff and ....

Also, as a new member, it is hard to tell who the Greenbar are and who are ASM's vs. committe members. It should be easy to tell who the committee members are in a properly uniformed troop. Their position patch says Troop Committee! Where did this idea that committee members don't wear a uniform come about?

One of the purposes of a Board of Review is a quality check on the program as administered by the Scoutmaster and his/her assistants (that is why they do not sit on these boards). Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to ask the Scout to repeat the Scout Oath, tie a bowline or demonstrate first aid. I think Beavah and SueM touched on this issue in previous posts but I just wanted to make it perfectly clear. Now, if the Scout is not able to tie a bowline and the requirement has been signed off, that is not grounds for failing the BOR. However, if ten Scouts in a row do the same thing, fail to be able to tie a bowline, and the board notices that the requirement was signed off by the same person for all ten Scouts that is a red flag that the program being delivered is flawed.

Until death. Seriously, some districts have an unofficial three years for district committee positions but for commissioners most do not. There is an award - the Distinguished Commissioner Service Award which I believe requires five consecutive years of active service. So, don't think there is a three year max or anything. Of course, like all volunteer positions, someone can always deny your application.

I'll bite. The devil is always in the details. The specific tenderfoot requirements you reference states: Record your best in the following tests: Current results Pushups _______ Pull-ups _______ Sit-ups _______ Standing long jump (_______ft _______in) 1/4-mile walk/run _______ 30 days later Pushups _______ Pull-ups _______ Sit-ups _______ Standing long jump (_______ft _______in) 1/4-mile walk/run _______ Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days. Now, we all know that 10 year old boys usually don't have much upper body strength. As adults we should also be able to infer that the reason for this requirement is for the boy to make the connection that if he practices these activities for 30 days (the real meat of the requirement) his physical conditioning will improve! Now, if a boy can't do one pull up to start with (may only get from a straight arm hang (180 deg) to a bent arm of 130 deg) and after practicing for 30 days he still can't do one pull up but can get to 90 deg that is improvement! I understand that some adults don't always interpret the requirements the same way (should the Scout show improvement line item by line item or if he has improved in at least one area does that constitute improvement?) but I don't like adults knowingly changing the Scout program because they feel they think they know what is best for the Scout (do one more pull-up for example). I don't think the requirement should be conditional according to what the boy can do originally. Just read the requirements. It really is fairly simple.

First of all, if a Scout just had his BOR, the SM should NOT have a rank patch available to give to him. If a Scout passes his BOR, he has earned the rank. The SM should then recognize the Scout immediately via a verbal announcement. At the next oppurtunity, next troop meeting for example, he can recognize again by presenting him with a rank patch. Last, at the next COH, the SM (or advancement chair, etc.) recognizes the Scouts accomplishment again. Three recognitions should be the norm. Now, if between the BOR and before the SM recognizes the Scout initially, the boy mouths off to the Scout the SM can handle the situation in many ways. The way I would handle it is to announce that "Johnny passed his BOR tonight." Simple, curt and matter of factly. Then I would announce to Johnny that he also has a Scoutmaster Conference scheduled for next week to discuss Scout Spirit. The message would be sent and no violations of the Scout program would occur. Beavah, I think you take much to lightly the so called "rules" of the Scouting program. We, Scout leaders, have promised to deliver this program and would be no less culpable than the mouthy 12 year old in violating the Scout Oath and Law if we "bent the rules" to our satisfaction because we, in our infinite wisdom, thought that we were really helping the boy by doing so. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Yes, the Scoutmaster, who is in charge of the troop's advancement program, was out of line. He has no right to "remove" a rank that was earned by a Boy Scout. (Something that all of the riff-raff should consider when they want the National Council to strip Eagle Scouts who do things later in life that are not "Scout like" such as Arthur Bishop, Gary Hirte, Scott Peterson, L. Ron Hubbard, Michael Moore, etc.)However, a few of your comments piqued my interest as well. 1) He is working on Camping, Family Life with his current troop and cycling with another troop in town. One does not work on merit badges with troops, one works with merit badge counselors. This is something many, many Scouters and Scouts seem to forget. 2) He was elected patrol leader May 2006 against my advice. I did not feel he was ready to be patrol leader but he tried, only to lose election to another boy in November. He was elected as a patrol leader. That's great. I'm assuming he ran again in November was not re-elected. No big deal. I've noticed in our troop that the boys track record in selecting youth leadership did not match my own. It is a learning experience for both the boys on the ballot and the voters. Just like you and me, we get the leaders we select. 3) This is a hyper kid who was supposed to be the elected patrol leader(the only patrol leader) at the time. I know what happened he got mouthy with the scout master after all after JLT at Univ of scouting a 12 year old knows it all. I'm somewhat confused by the above. Are you stating that your son is a hyper kid who was "supposed" to be the PL? What is your statement implying? My current SPL (I'm a Scoutmaster) came out of NYLT this summer thinking that now, he knows it all. (He's 13.) I would calmly talk to the Scoutmaster, without your son, and get his take on things. Use it as an opportunity to get his point of view and also to inform him of your thoughts. What troubles me is nowhere in your post do you mention if your son would like to change troops. It should be his decision, not yours.

One argument I don't see being brought up very often is this: The BSA states that "You should be faithful to your religious beliefs." Now, I contend that a Scout whose religious beliefs are such that homosexual behavior in NOT immoral should be judged differently that a Scout whose religious beliefs are such that homosexual behavior is immoral. Just like eating ham. Should my sons, who have no religious beliefs that prevent the eating of pork be judged the same as another Scout whose religious beliefs forbid the eating of pork (see Qur'an, Deuteronomy, Leviticus)? IMHO, no. Although the Scouts behaviour may be identical (i.e. eating a BLT on an outing) one would be following their religious beliefs (a good thing according to the BSA) and one would not ( a bad thing according to the BSA). So, before we start condoning or judging Scouts and Scouters about their behaviors, should we not first inquire about their religious beliefs?(This message has been edited by acco40)

All this talk of "aging out" of a troop - heck, I'm 50 and still involved in the troop. As Scoutmaster, one of the questions I ask some of the Star and Life Scouts during their Scoutmaster conference is a simple, "Why in the heck are you in Scouts?" Not surprising to me, but very disappointing, is their reply; "To get Eagle." Not earn, not build character, not to develop citizenship, no to build personal fitness. But then I have to remind myself - what is the one of the methods of Scouting (which are used to achieve the aims)? Why it is advancement! So, if having their eyes on the prize so to speak is to "get" Eagle and unbeknowst to them they develop a little character, citizenship and personal fitness along the way no harm no foul?

When I went to college, I lived in the newly constructed dormitory. It was built in the early 70's and was the newest dorm on campus - eight stories high, about 70 students per floor, twin buildings (one female, one male) connected by a common lobby and cafeteria (was considered co-ed back in the day). Housed over 1,100 students! Well, it was recently torn down because it is hard to "wire" an existing building and according to the experts it was cheaper to tear down and build anew rather than renovate. That IS the American way is it not?

A little history may help those who think the idea of an adult earning their Eagle is ridiculous. In 1952, age limits were set so that adults could no longer earn Eagle Scout. I believe that one of the reasons age restrictions were lifted were so servicemen (both my mother and father were serving in the US Navy at 17 years old during WWII) who fought in WWII could earn the rank after they returned.