acco40

PLs are elected positions too (albeit not troop wide but patrol wide). Although unorthodox, many troops elects ASPLs and PLs with the intention of having them "takeover" next. Not endorsed by the BSA (IMO a SPL should choose his assistant(s)) but it does make the ASPL pay closer attention if he knows what is in store in the future!

Arrowpoints may be worn (blue or tan shirt) if the Webelos diamond rank badge is worn. They may not be worn with the oval Webelos rank badge. Let's look at the issue from a practicality standpoint. The "diamond" can accomodate four badges or less. The issuing of a diamond rank badge is a recent development. In the recent past "tiger strips" were awarded, not a diamond shaped rank badge. Therefore, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear & Webelos made up the diamond quartet of badges. When the Tiger diamond badge first became available (and the Tigers were more main streamed into the Pack) there then no room for Tiger, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear and Webelos badges (diamond limited to four). So, for a while, Webelos, who earned the Tiger strip as a Tiger but still in Cub Scouts as Wolf, Bear or Webelos when the Tiger diamond badge was offered had the option of going with the Webelos Oval or Webelos diamond badge. Not sure of exact dates but when the first class of Tigers who earned the Tiger diamond badge come (came?) around to the Webelos rank the option of Oval or Diamond for Webelos went away. The Oval was required and for the tan shirt. Now for opinion. The BSA loses many youth in the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. In 1982 Tiger Cubs started as a 7 year-old or second grade program. Wolf was the 8 year-old or third grade program, Bear was the 9 year-old or fourth grade program, and Webelos was the 10 year-old or fifth grade program. Starting in 1986 ages for the various programs were lowered and the two year Webelos program was introduced. The Tiger Cub program started for first-grade boys, Wolf was a second-grade and third-grade program. In 1987 Bear was a third grade and fourth grade program. Wolf became a second grade only program. In 1988 the new fourth grade Webelos program started and the old Webelos program was used for fifth graders. In 1989 the first second-year Webelos dens were formed and were for fifth graders. With the required tan shirts and Oval rank badge, Webelos is slipping into "Junior Boy Scouts." I think it is a mistake but an attempt by the BSA to keep membership.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Oops! We really don't have campaign hats. I'm not really sure the style name of the hats. Maybe a "bucket" hat or fisherman's hat? It is black and has a brim. I know that for BSA headgear the choices are a campaign hat or a visored hat. I hate the ball caps and have interpreted "visored" hat as any hat with a forward brim which our has (it has a brim all around). Sorry for the confusion. I've never seen a black (after cleaning) campaign hat either.

Wisdom does not come with age. When I was a high school senior I knew practically everything. My parents and many other adults were clueless. As I grew older and became a college grad and started my first job, I knew more than most at my workplace but I understood that I didn't know everything. After a few years on the job and after obtaining my graduate degree I realized I knew even less. Now as a middle aged man with three kids, one a teenager, another fast approaching and a daughter who constantly teaches me new things I realize I know less now than I ever did. So my life is proof that wisdom descreases with age! My son came home with a new word after JLT training last summer. He kept refering to some of his leaders as "quasis." I wasn't sure what he meant but at our council, the youth refer to the 18 - 21 year old staff as quasis. Not quite youth, but not quite adult. I like the term! Sturgen and BW do have a valid points. The BSA does give youth a chance to lead but I've seen SMs and SAs fight giving up "too much" leadership.

Our troop normally wears black neckerchiefs with gold lettering (BSA symbol & troop name). Our "official" hat is a black campaign hat with the same logo and lettering as our neckerchiefs on top. I'd hate to see our "style" viewed as funeral wear. Seriously, one dresses in black (civilian clothes) to indicate one is in mourning. I would prefer that Scouts and Scouters wear their typical field uniform with no alterations. I don't believe anyone would mistake the gathering of Scouts at a funeral as lost souls looking for a troop meeting.

Co-ed scouting didn't seem to hamper his Scout survival skills.

I'm interested in how weather forces the cancelation of an outing. The "great blackout of the northeast" did not cancel our canoe trip, 2F didn't cancel our winter outing, driving rains didn't cancel out hikes, etc. Unless tornadoes or hurricanes why cancel? I like the quote, "our wet weather plan is to get wet."

Bob, I think you misunderstood my post. I think a Scout's Own Service is a great idea. I was objecting to eagle54 contention that "some suggested services seem to all inclusive." His "remedy" was to make it more specific. I think that defeats the purpose; ergo my ill attempt at humor. If an individual does not want to participate in a non-denominational service in the presence of individuals of many diverse faiths, I'd suggest that Scouting was not for them. My "personal solution to supporting the ideal of "reverence" when dealing with a large group of mixed religious beliefs" would be to develop a service that would avoid symbolism (crosses, stars of David, etc.), specific references to religious persona (Jesus, Buddha, etc.) and would revere life, the great outdoors, mankind, fellowship, and other ideals embodied in the Scout Oath and Law. In fact, this is what I did when formulating a chapel service for my Wood Badge class.(This message has been edited by acco40)

YankeeVentureScout, There are two research topics that would enjoy reading about and that I feel are more appropriate. 1) I think BW slightly skewed the recent SC decision. The issue was not if a private organization has the right ... (I don't think anyone was debating that issue); the argument was really if the BSA was (is) a private organization. 2) Why the BSA (i.e. the National Executive Board) believes that an individual who is an avowed atheist or homosexual cannot fully develop in character according to the ideals and purpose of the BSA program. I think exploring the above topics would be much more germane to the current political and social debates surrounding the BSA today.

How about a service where everyone kneels down on a prayer rug facing Mecca, gets up does the sign of the cross, then all speak in tongues, witness a total immersion baptism, sacrafice a goat (or lamb depending on ones beliefs) and this is all done while wearing yarmulkes and when finished all stomp on a wine glass! You can see how trying to make a service specific yet all inclusive is frought with problems. For those that feel non-demoninational service are watered down, get a life.

If you take the time to review advancement policy, a signed off requirement is a completed requirement. Now, let me give you a real life example. The SPL in our troop signed off the "demonstrate line rescue" requirement for a few of the boys in our troop. He told me that he asked the boys how to do a line resue and everyone of them told him exactly and correctly how to perform a line rescue. Great I told him. However, the requirement is to demonstrate and that is very difficult to do in a church basement. He was informed that he should not have signed off. However, I did not "remove" the requirement from the two boys who were trying to complete that requirement. I also made sure the boys demonstrated the line rescue at a later date, not to get approval for the requirement but to make sure they know how to do it. Was fraud involved? Not in my estimation. Bad judgement? Yes. Lying? No. Saying grace before dinner a 1st Class requirement? What program are you following?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Number one, the BSA did not "ban gays from the program." Number two, if you check out the book (I enjoyed it immensely) Scout's Honor by Peter Applebome he has many references in the back of the book (many were thesis dissertations by college students) on the BSA.

I don't count my chickens before they hatch, but I believe we will more than double our troop this year. For the record, Cub Scout enrollment nationally was down by 46,000 last year.

The Pack and specifically the Webelos Den Leader should conduct the ceremony the way they wish. "Crossover" is not a BSA defined term with a list of requirements. When I served as a WDL, the last official Pack event for the Webelos was at the Pack Blue and Gold banquet in February. We conducted two distinct ceremonies. One ceremony for the awarding of the Arrow of Light and another ceremony for the boys who were joining a Boy Scout troop (i.e. crossover). P.S. Ed is correct. There is no requirement to join a Boy Scout troop to earn the AOL. However, filling out a Boy Scout application is a requirement.(This message has been edited by acco40)

For 1st Class, I would not challenge the requirements. My take, once signed, once done. In the future I may restrict who may sign off on requirements and I certainly would talk to those who signed off on the requirements. It looks like you have a case of a Scout (2nd Class) who really used the SA and troop instructor as role models. Now, if you really believe the Scout/Scouters "lied" I would not sign off on "Scout Spirit."

The BSA uses two letter position codes for most (all?) volunteer positions. Scoutmaster => SM Asst. Scoutmaster => SA Cubmaster => CM Committee Member => MC etc. The Scouter's Award, correctly termed the Boy Scout Leader Training Award, is an award for SM, SA or MC positions. On must be trained for their position, two year tenure and assorted other req's.

Touche!

Has our society become so polarized that statements like: "I am not a liberal. I support capitalism as a much more fair and freedom-bearing system." are made? Since when did "liberal thought" preclude a belief in capitalism?

Why is it that most of those who disliked Kid Rock "wearing" the Flag as a poncho voice no complaint about Jim Craig using the Flag as a shawl after the Miracle on Ice? P.S. No, I am not a Disney shill. And, the NFL, which promoted the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders out the proverbial ying yang now gets on its high horse and states that what JJ did was appalling? It makes me laugh! When baseball hired Jose Feliciano to sing the National Anthem many moons ago ('68), what he did may have shocked many (tame by today's standards), but not those who were familiar with his work. When the NFL contracts out to MTV to do the half-time show, what did they expect? Do the powers at the NFL really have their head so far up their shoulder pads that they were oblivious to what MTV produces? What a joke.(This message has been edited by acco40)

However, SAs may earn the Scouter's Award.

If the sole purpose was to raise money, may I suggest Pamela Anderson, Eminem, Bill Clinton or numerous other controversial figures.

Very informative and I found it very interesting too. Thanks Mr. Golden. Notice how adult male association transitioned to adult association, Scout master to Scoutmaster, play to game to "gone", etc. The last two are almost identical (adult male to adult the only major change) but the order was changed. Does anyone attach any significance to the order of the methods? For example, Uniform "fell" from sixth to eighth, personal growth rose from eighth to fifth, etc.

For sports, proper uniforming may be crucial. In a sport like football, even what numbers one wears is crucial. Having a team dress uniformly provides easy distinction between "friend and foe." Professional sports is very image conscience (you wouldn't think so after the recent Super Bowl) and dictates such things as having shirt tails out, socks up etc. Safety is also a big issue with sports so proper helmets, shoes, pads, etc. are crucial. Also, what is key is success of the team, not individual. Therefore, a team will usually supply a uniform to those who will benefit the team. Scouts is image conscience (at least the national council is) but individual units may not be as much. Safety is an issue but our uniform, while designed not to impede safety, is not specifically required for safety sake. Scouts aims apply to individuals, not teams. As such, individuals are made responsible for their uniform and while many who balk at a scouting uniform for reasons of cost really have no leg to stand on, the need for proper uniform escapes them. I am dismayed at the lack of what I consider proper uniforming. Our committee recently passed two boys who just earned their 1st class rank. One showed up without a belt, another without a neckerchief (he borrowed another scouts) and both were without their hats (as a troop we have troop hats). While I don't think those uniform issues should have been pass/fail criteria, the issues were not even mentioned. (My wife is on the BOR and I asked her if it was brought up at all). As SM, I try to set an example by wearing my uniform in the proper manner. I must admit I do have a devious side. The boys like to wear their activity uniforms in the summer. After a certain date (usually in May) I allow it on a patrol by patrol basis as soon as an entire patrol passes a uniform inspection by the SPL. Make peer pressure work for you!

Yes, there is no comparison. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. A lamp can become a WMD in the hands of a scorned woman.

Don't forget the interpreter strip too.