acco40

SERVICE STARS ARE WORN AT THE OPTION OF THE WEARER. Service stars are not for "everyday" wear in my book (and I think the Insignia Guide too but I don't have it with me). Just like medals, service stars and other assorted pins don't hold up well in the field (and it is a FIELD uniform). If worn, service stars are worn centered on the left pocket button slightly above the left pocket seam. As for a 50 year old wearing a Tiger service star, that is in error. First, Tiger Cubs did not exist when that man was a youth (unless he was in a special program for special adults who may be Scouts as adults). The orange backing (not issued anymore) was for Tiger YOUTH only. Tiger Cub leaders (partners) wear the light blue backing on their service stars

1/7th of the methods? I guess all seven methods yields all two and 5/8ths aims?

I agree. I had a calculus teacher in high school that "preached" the first five minutes or so of almost every class. He would put down psychologists and talk about his values. Now, I believe that teachers should have some leeway in teaching what they want. We do need to be careful in a public school setting because the teachers have a captive audience but I don't like the idea of government dictating specifics of what should be taught. I remember to this day my freshmen biology text. When the issue of creation vs. evolution was covered in the text the book simply stated that individuals believed both, but that it would concentrate on the THEORY of evolution. It did point out that not all believed in evolution. On a different note, I remember a chapter in my digital circuits text, "The Engineer as a Dope Pusher." It was an attempt to teach ethics. I talked about how engineers developed a riding lawn mower so that man could save on effort in cutting the lawn. Engineers then developed a nice canopy to shade the mower from the sun. Engineers then developed treadmills so that those who rode the mowers could get exercise. They then developed tanning booths so that the shaded mower riders could get a nice tan. How ironic. Yes, I went to college in the mid-70's so the text books were written in the late 60's or early 70's so you can guess the thinking. Oh yea, I forgot, in all of my text, the great gas crisis of '73 influenced my engineering texts a great deal too. That is why we have totally run out of fossil fuel by 2004 and are running 70% of our power plants on nucluear energy and the rest by solar, geothermal, hydroelectric and wind energy. Yes, Virginia, even scientist can be wrong sometimes.

The Conservatives & Liberals part of the post were mine, written with tongue firmly in cheek. I very much dislike the polarization, politically, that our nation has become. Not sure if "talk radio" is a result or cause (one of many) for this. It seem political discourse has become more entertainment than true debate. Political labels are meaningless. Don't you agree that generally speaking, conservatives want "less government?" Therefore, such government intrusions such as outlawing abortion or mandating teaching should be despised by conservatives. In reality, all seem to favor government intrusion if it furthers or legitimizes their beliefs. I don't like the current trend to "edit" scientific research because it doesn't fit someone's politics. Both parties have been guilty. This administration seems to have taken it to a new height.

The same can be said for posters that misspell and use improper grammar. With the availability of dictionaries (on-line too!) and English textbooks, they just don't care! It is all priorities. Face it, with most, scouting doesn't rank as their number one priority.

Unless it comes from me then it should be assumed as gospel. (wink, wink)

My old stomping grounds, Missouri, has joined such other esteemed areas such as Kansas, Georgia, Ohio and others in dictating what teachers should teach. Of course, conservatives will fight this bill, believing that the government should stay out of our lives and liberals will support this bill believing that the government should legislate certain things for the good of society. Yeah, right. From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: A handful of Missouri legislators have signed on to a proposal that would change how teachers introduce students to information about the origin of life. Public school teachers who teach evolution also would have to teach intelligent design under the proposal pending in the Missouri House of Representatives. New textbooks would have to label evolution as a theory that cannot be proved. A teacher, principal or superintendent could be fired for deliberately ignoring these requirements. With the proposal, Missouri joins states such as Kansas, Georgia and Ohio, where fierce debates have erupted over how to teach science in public school classrooms. "This is so sad to see this in this day and age," said Charles Granger, curators' distinguished teaching professor at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and a member of the board of the Academy of Science of St. Louis. "I hope we don't make fools of ourselves like Kansas." A decision by the Kansas Board of Education in 1999 to remove evolution from science standards brought a storm of protest. A year later, a new board revised the standards to include the subject. State Rep. Robert Wayne Cooper, R-Camdenton, said he introduced the bill at the request of a group from the St. Charles area called Missourians for Excellence in Science Education. Cooper said he seeks to improve science education by changing textbooks, by making sure fact and theory are not commingled and to allow discussion of intelligent design as a model for the origin of life. The bill could have a huge impact on the teaching of science, said Tom Cradick, a biology teacher at Parkway North High who has taught for 28 years and was 2001 Missouri Outstanding Biology Teacher. For instance, after science standards were changed in Kansas, a physics teacher was not allowed to teach the big-bang theory. A chemistry teacher could not teach the periodic table. Cradick noted that the provisions of the bill would apply to physics, chemistry, biology, health, physiology, genetics, astronomy, cosmology, geology, paleontology, anthropology, ecology, climatology or other science topics. He worries that the legislation will distract from the effort to make students competitive in science with students abroad. The National Science Teachers Association has said "so-called theories of intelligent design and creationism have no scientific credibility and will lead to many misconceptions about scientific concepts and the nature of science." Teachers should not be pressured to promote nonscientific views, said Cindy Workosky, a spokeswoman for the association based in Arlington, Va. Supporters of intelligent design are trying to bring creationism and religion into schools, said Rebecca Litherland, science coordinator for the Columbia public schools and a past president of the Science Teachers of Missouri. There is no such intent, said Joe White, president of the citizens group that worked several years to prepare for the legislation that Cooper introduced. "We are not defining who intelligence is," said White, a Boeing engineer who lives in St. Charles. "If you are Christian, you may say God. If you are an atheist, you may say it was an extraterrestrial intelligent cosmic being." People who support intelligent design reject the theory of evolution, White said. "Life is too complex to happen by an evolutionary mechanism." Evolution is impossible to explain in a few sentences, teachers say. But the basic concept holds that over millions of years and with environmental pressure, various traits are selected that can lead to different species. Intelligent design is explained as "irreducible complexity" in a living organism that could not have happened by chance. State Rep. Cynthia Davis, R-O'Fallon, said she decided to co-sponsor the bill as a way to make sure children are given "intellectual freedom." Davis said she has received more e-mail on this bill than any other she has sponsored. Many creationists and evolutionists embrace tenets of both to various extents, said Andrew Shaw, a teacher at Westminster Christian Academy in west St. Louis County. "A good teacher does not need the state telling her or him what position to hold on a curricular issue or what percentage of time to devote to each side of an issue," Shaw said. If Missouri legislators approve the bill, White expects a court challenge. "We are looking forward to that," he said. "We plan to kick their tails to the Supreme Court and back on this one."

I heard this in a SM minute and assumed it was authentic. I've also seen many sites that claim it is an "urban legend." While I believe it is a fact that Capatain Kangaroo was a former marine, I doubt the following really took place. Captain Kangaroo was a member of the USMC and involved in the initial landing of Iwo Jima. Here is dialog between Lee Marvin and Johnny Carson: Carson, "Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima...and that during the course of that action you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded." "Yeah, yeah... I got shot square in the ass and they gave me the Cross for securing a hot spot about halfway up Suribachi... bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys gettin' shot hauling you down. But Johnny, at Iwo I served under the bravest man I ever knew... We both got the Cross the same day, but what he did for his Cross made mine look cheap in comparison. The dumb bastard actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. That Sergeant and I have been lifelong friends. When they brought me off Suribachi, we passed the Sergeant and he lit a smoke and passed it to me lying on my belly on the litter and said, 'Where'd they get you Lee?' I responded 'Well Bob, if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse!' Johnny, I'm not lying, Sergeant Keeshan was the bravest man I ever knew. Bob Keeshan. You and the world know him as Captain Kangaroo." (This message has been edited by acco40)

JFK initials and Heinz money ta boot! May be a hard combo to beat. If the economy continually produces less than 150,000 jobs per month (the needed amount to tread water and employ the entering of age work force) Bush will be voted out of office. If the economy picks up, specifically jobs, Bush will be re-elected. I find it humorous with all of this wailing about a "liberal" Dean and "conservative" Bush that Dean's fiscal policy is much more conservative than Bush's. Other issues, much different. I think the issues surrounding Iraq will take a distant backseat to the economic ones. Hopefully, the hot button issues of gay-marriage, abortion, etc. won't be drug out by any of the candidates. For either party, the party that puts up the most centrist individual will capture the 20% of the electorate that is up for grabs.

The Cub Scout gives goodwill - except when it comes to uniforming! Nice post. One may browse this forum and see the multitude of posts about neckerchiefs, hats, sashes, and on and on to see that the uniform stirs the hearts of many. Yes, as Scouters we should strive to wear the uniform correctly (part of our function as role models) but yes, there is a way to do encourage proper uniformly and a way NOT to do it. Badgering youth and adults is not a recommended avenue. Again, I really enjoyed the post.

In our lodge (are the numbers really going away?), the boys emphasize the fact that the OA is a SERVICE organization more than an honorary organization and as such, a dirty sash is a sign that the Scout has done service. The newbie white sparkly sashes are derided by the "vets." They deride sash "condoms" that some use to protect their sash during work. I also believe they do this because they know it drives their parents, particularly moms, crazy and the majority being 12-16 year olds, they revel in that! I do know some have washed them (not many in my neck of the woods) and I haven't seen any pink sashes yet. Maybe with modern detergents in cold water the colors stay fast. My son and I have never washed ours to date.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Your question, "Do you think he qualifies for the requirement to displaying scout spirit and acting in a position of leadership for 6 months?" is really two separate questions about two distinct requirements. This is what I have been taught and I even have references at home from the National Council that would back me up. 1. If he has been elected to a youth leadership position and his tenure has been the required length of time he HAS passed requirement #5 (While a Star Scout, serve actively 6 months in one or more of the positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)." He has passed even if he never had shown up for any PLC or troop meeting! 2. Requirement #2 (Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.) is entirely up to the SM. For me, I would not sign-off on this individuals requirement based on your information alone.

All can hold more than one position, just not in the same unit.

Much gnashing of teeth occurs with when to wear the OA belt. What BW stated is correct; one should wear the OA sash at OA functions only. Now, my rule of thumb is that the OA sash in our troop is worn on our troop meeting night for OA elections, at summer camp call-out ceremonies, at all OA meetings but generally not at Court of Honors. We generally do not consider our troop COH an OA function. Your son should have an OA Rep position badge (if that is his primary position). Now my question, I've seen Arrowmen wear the OA sash with "civilian" clothes at OA functions. Is this appropriate?

"Anyone who moves to a foreign country and takes up arms against the United States, has voluntarily relinquished any rights he had as a citizen. In response to the question in the subject line...who cares?" I'm sure glad that Abe didn't feel that way about members of the Army of Virginia.

South St. Louisan (a very different breed than North County or West County). Quiz for all of you non-Missouri folks: What county does the city of St. Louis reside in? (No cheating or Google searching, Scouts honor!).

Can anyone inform me how National Council at-large members are selected? I know there is some type of election for one-year terms but by whom and when? Similarly, honary, non-voting members. Just curious. Also, in a previous post someone was asking about the olive ties of days past. The current catalog lists scouting neckties but lists them either for "civilian" wear or for professionals. Is their a necktie of any sort that can be worn to quasi-formal occasions like for a SM or UC attending a Pack Blue and Gold banquet/AOL ceremony?

Fuzzy, you've stated what I fundamentally believe in a much more articulate and clear manner than I have. The boys under your tutelage are lucky indeed.

22 day tour of what? I can see Jambo shirt but why should addtional socks, pants or belt be needed. Yes they have Jambo pants (shorts) and such but I would assume that would fall more in the souvenir side than required side.

Jesus takes control of your life and you get an "F?" Yes, the Lord really does work in mysterious ways. Sorry, my darker side got the best of me.

BW, I tend to agree with your "plan of action" and I might add CO/COR to the list (representative at the unit or council level) especially if a religious organization is the CO. What I am saying is that we as Scouters in a particular unit (yes, that is somewhat of a generalization. I realize that not all posters on this forum are Scouters with our primary affiliation with a unit) should not unilaterally act to remove a youth member. I also firmly believe that to ask young children to hold a belief and to hold them to it is not quite kosher. A six year old Tiger Cub can be taught the Cub Scout Promise but I'm sure if I ask Tiger Cubs at random what their duty to God entails I'll get a bunch of blank stares at best. Rather than performing witch hunts, I believe we should try to teach these children, via our actions as role models, and by encouraging their parents and extended family, to live by the ideals of Scouting. The line does blur when you start dealing with the older Scouts. I would just err more on the side of allowing a young boy to continue in Scouting before I start trying to find ways to remove him. Heck, I know of adults who firmly DO NOT believe in the tenents of Leave No Trace and I don't try and through them out! (Yes, that was typed in jest.)

My wife has been told by our daughter (8 yrs old at the time) that she "hated" her. My son's have called me an idiot. People proclaim things that they don't believe all the time (or maybe just they DO believe them at the time in the heat of the moment). As adult Scouters, we need to be careful of the context, time and place when a Scout utters a so called "belief." In the example given in the first (original post) my interpretation was that the Scouts "proclamation" that he was an atheist was given in response to the adviser stating to the crew that he would like everyone to earn a specific protestant religious award. IMO, more investigation is needed before any action is taken. Assuming the Venture program has an equivalent Scoutmaster conference meeting, that may be an appropriate place to bring up the topic. Just as surely as uttering the Scout oath proves nothing of the Scouts beliefs, uttering, "I'm an atheist" prove nothing on the surface either. I believe more investigation is required before drastic action is taken.

What is the purpose of the baseball Hall of Fame? To add glory to ball players, managers and sportwriters? To create a "shrine" for the fans? If the latter, Mr. Rose's accomplishments should be well cataloged into the HOF but no formal induction of the man should occur. Pete bet on baseball. He was aware of the consequences when he did it. If or when he issues a contrite apology, I believe baseball (the commissioner's office) should lift the ban allowing him to make a living via MLB (i.e. manage, scout, etc.) but still not induct him into the HOF. His accomplishments may be formally recognized in the HOF but include his character foibles too (with respect to baseball betting only).

Who do you believe the professionals work for scoutldr? I believe yarrow's question was addressed to new scouters or scouts so I will refrain from answering his question.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The age for Scouting is 6 - 18 (yes I'm ignoring some aspects such as OA youth membership and Crews who may maintain youth membership until 21) all of which are minors in most every aspect of the law. It is NORMAL for adolescents to try various ways to assert their independence while they start to spread their wings. Some techniques are to challenge authority, belief systems, clothing, and music. When my oldest son was a Webelos Scout, his religious education teacher, a woman in her thirties, suddenly died (aorta burst). All of his simplistic beliefs in a caring God who loved "good" people were challenged. In his own way he questioned his beliefs as only an innocent 10 year old could. "How could a loving God (Jesus loves me this I know ...) let the mother of one of his classmates and friends, mother to two younger children, teacher of the "word", etc. die in her sleep?", he asked. "All that I have been taught has been disproved", he thought. He refused to go to mass the following week proclaiming that it was all nonsense. Should I have pulled him out of his den right then and there? Should I have forced him to "believe"? No to both accounts. People, don't forget that these are children we are dealing with struggling to find themselves and their place in the world. Let them know what we expect of them, provide them with the best role models we can deliver, counsel them but for heaven sake, don't abandon them if they question their faith. Now, on the other hand, if a youth is attempting to dissuade others in the unit from upholding the Oath/Promise, you may well have to remove the individual if he persists. Similarly, I feel if an adult or youth, in a nonsectarian unit, pushes a particular religious belief onto the other members, it is just as serious an offense. That is why I do not like denominational prayer in our unit or council activities. I don't say I don't allow it (I have no authority to not allow it) I just don't like it.