acco40

Johnny to his mother, "Can I parade around naked at school?" "No!", replied his mother. "Why not?", asked Johnny, "Billy does." I am continuously amazed by the number of adults who make the same argument. Yes people carry the flag parallel to the ground. Yes, American en masse flew those silly flags from their automobile windows after 9/9/11. Yes, all of the above violates the US Flag Code. Because others do it does not make it right. Is it a big deal? No. I agree with the response of NeilLup on the importance of the violation. Only in America does the "bigger is better" mentality pertain to flags. Do we feel the need to "super size" that symbol too?

Yo Adrian, (sorry could not resist), although off topic to some extent, I have to say I'm totally baffled by your post. Ethics = religion according to Merlyn? Please elighten.

The church (lower case meaning local) that charters our Troop (Espiscopal) states on its web site that it is "a welcoming, accepting Christian community open for all people." From that, I'd say that it does not discriminate (legally or illegally) on the basis of religion. Note, it does not say "a welcoming, accepting community open for all Chistian people."; which would be discriminatory (and legal). I think that is what is getting it in hot water with a few folks.

Here is an approach I might use dependent on the individuals involved. Have an angelic faced Tiger Cub go up to the Cubmaster and ask in a very sweet voice, "Sh*t, Mr. Cubmaster. I forgot when the next G*d d*mn Pack meeting was going to be. I'm such an a*shole for not remembering. Can you fill me in when the d*mn thing is? If the Cubmaster is shocked by that exchange you're in luck. If not, your doomed.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I agree with most of the posters here. Try to know what your immediate future as a Scouter will be (Cubmaster, Asst. Scoutmaster, Committee Member etc.), not your current position necessarily. However, you can stretch that too. When I took WB (first 21st Century Course) my immediate future Scouter position was BOTH a Webelos den leader (son #2) and as an SA (Asst. Scoutmater). Therefore, my "ticket" consisted of goals that complemented both positions (as well as one that complemented myself - personal fitness). As it turned out, my future position was Scoutmaster, something I did not foresee but we won't go there! As was also stated, it is a good idea to take WB within two years of your basic leader training for your current position. For the WB for the 21st Century, I don't feel it is as important to know what position you will be in as it was with the earlier more position specific course. While it is true your "ticket" may be position specific, with careful planning on your part, you can avoid that pratfall if you are unsure of your future role. Take it and enjoy it. I sure did!

Everyone, it's not that I don't value your opinion, but I was curious if anyone knows the legal opinion on this matter. My guess is that it is a slam dunk that the BSA does discriminate on the basis of creed (they do require a basic belief or fundamental principle - the very definition of creed) and if the legal beagles are in agreement with that, I really don't want to pursue the matter further. I dont' feel it would be honest. BW, what does "illegally discriminate" mean? I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I know I can discriminate legally (I choose not to date males, practice Judaism, etc.) but those are all legal. I know in my place of business, I can't specifically ask a job candidate his/her age as that is construed to be illegal. I do know that a grocery store may not choose to serve whites ONLY or blacks ONLY as that is deemed to be illegal. I know that in getting a security clearance, national origin may be taken into account. However, if the local Piggly-Wiggly wanted to donate free food to ONLY a certain race that was below the poverty level, would our courts see that as illegal? I really don't know. If the storage company only wanted to know if the organization did not discriminate illegally, wouldn't they state that or do you feel that is implied in their eligibility requirements? And FOG, get off your Girl Scout knocking. It is not very becoming. Two wrongs don't make a right. Everyone, thanks for the feedback.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Face it, posters on this forum and in life, have very varied personalities. Many (conservatives?) take a hard "you're either with us or against us" type attitude on almost everything. Others like to be adversarial regardless of the topic. Some like to pick on spelling, grammar, etc. It takes all kinds to make up the world. For me, I squelch the squelch. However, I "speed read" a few posters which is a self imposed quasi-ignore on my part. The internet is the antithesis of direct contact. Rules of etiquette seem to go out the window for many. Many will not go through a simple proof read and spare us the spelling and grammatical faux pas they impose on others (another case of my time is more important than your time?). Most post thoughts and ideas they would never verbalize in a face to face situation. That is sad in my opinion.

First, this is not a "right or wrong" question. I know that the supreme court has determined that the BSA is a private organization and as such has the right of "free association." Here is my dilemma. A storage company allows certain non-profit organizations to be eligible for free storage if they meet certain criteria. We are investigating using that facility to store our troop trailer. One of the critera is that the organization does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, creed, age, sex, national origin or disability. Now I know that the BSA has age restrictions, sex restrictions, religious requirements, etc. But in the eyes of the legal system, does the BSA discriminate on religion, age, sex, etc.? Again, I don't want to get into if they should or should not, if they have the right to or not, just if I can in all honesty state that they do not discriminate or not.

We (I) try to use the Patrol Method for everything. (B-P quote: The PM isn't a way to run a BS troop, it is the ONLY way! or something like that). The problem is the boys (and some of our SAs) sometimes don't want to use it. "Wouldn't it be easier if we just all ate the same meals and cleaned up together" is a refrain I hear way too often! I do (and will) need to re-iterate it again and again. We do need to get "all of our oars" going in the same direction wrt adult leaders. The boys will always look for the path of least resistance. Also like most troops they claim they want to be boy run but that usually means having veto power over adult decisions. When it comes time for the boys to step up, they are not as vocal about being boy led. They are still young, our leaders are only 13 and I am proud of them. They are learning that THEY choose where we go on our outings, what we do at our meetings, etc. Therefore, if they want to see changes, go ahead and make the changes! It is my job to give them the resourses to do that. It is not an overnight process as many already know. Now, if any boy said he joined the Boy Scouts so that he would be able to make ethical decisions, develop character, become a better citizen or to maintain physical, mental and emotional fitness most of us would fall out of our proverbial chair. Fun is their goal and rightly so at this age.

Boys, boys, simmer down! FOG, don't have such a narrow view of "serves." For many a troop, the best leader is the one who "serves" the troop the best. To serve doesn't mean to be docile, subservient, etc. At a restaurant a waiter serves but does not necessarily serve the customer the best in the full extent. The manager, owner, or maitre de could all be labeled as the best "leader" because they really serve the customers needs the best, providing him with good food at a reasonable price in an enjoyable environment. The wait staff only delivers food. Bob, maybe such postings go unchecked and unchallenged and by most because you do such a good job checking and challenging yourself the others get lazy.

At our recent JLT outing, I asked our "senior" boys (12 - 15 year olds) a few questions via a Troop survey. I thought I'd share them with you. I was surprised by some of the answers. The troop had recently doubled in size with the influx of new Webelos and like with most change, some of the older boys did not embrace the change. I also found out during our JLT "games" that many of the boys preferred the "wrong" leadership style. If you are aware of the rope circle games, the following is interesting. In the first game, a SM barks orders to blindfolded, silent Scouts, linked together in a rope circle to form a square. Next, the blindfolded Scouts try to form a triangle with the SM silent and the boys leading. During the reflection afterward, most preferred the directive style of the overbearing SM! Less confusion in their eyes. They still are warming up to having to lead or being led by their peers. As one boy told me on a previous camping trip when I asked him to supervise dinner he said he didn't want to be a leader because he wanted everyone to like him. I've still got a lot of work to do in teaching the boys that a leader is more than the John Wayne type depicted in the JLT tapes. We WILL get there! What do you think Scouts should do? 1. Go on campouts, make friends and have fun. 2. I think that scouts should participate in community service projects, camping, and educational programs that you cant get in school. 3. They should run the troop. 4. Campouts 5. Have fun and learn 6. Have fun with everything we do, help and assist people 7. Earn eagle 8. Be a leader, teach other kids 9. Have a good time camping and moving up in rank and going cool places 10. Run the troop 11. Have fun and learn new awards. 12. Have fun, learn and have fun If you could change anything in the Troop, what would it be? 1. The meetings every week because most of the time we have nothing to do. 2. I would change the lack of Boy leadership. More available merit badge counselors. 3. Mix the patrols up so they're diverse in experience. 4. Nothing. 5. Meeting end on time 6. How the troop works together. 7. Be fun with more activities. 8. More informational meetings. 9. Better advancement. 10. Not to sit in the basement for an hour and a half. 11. Dont know. 12. More campouts and more fun activities. What is your best skill as it relates to Scouting? 1. Camping and relating good with others. 2. My best skill would have to be carpentry and wood working. 3. Helping people out. 4. First aid. 5. I dont know. 6. Getting people to understand the importance of what they do. 7. Teaching little scouts. 8. First aid. 9. I dont know. 10. Helping people. 11. Organization. 12. Blank. What would you like to see the Troop do? 1. Have more campouts and more hard campouts like white water rafting. 2. I would like to see the troop go on more high adventure trips. 3. I think the mountain climbing was fun. Id like to do paint ball if we can. 4. More games. 5. More exciting campouts. 6. Fun activities such as rock climbing and snow sports. 7. More merit badges. 8. More first aid and fire safety. 9. More places where we sleep inside or do more than just camp or go to camporees. 10. Go to Cedar Point or the U.P. 11. Dont know or care. 12. Fun activities. (Note: Cedar Point is an amusement park) What do you expect to get out of being a leader? 1. To know what to do as a leader. 2. Strategies for motivation younger boys and controlling out of control behavior. 3. To be able to lead better, understand tricks. 4. More respect. 5. Leadership schools. (Skills?) 6. Able to deal with the boys who dont work or listen. 7. More leader experience. 8. More experience. 9. I will bet better at being a leader and it is a requirement for some badge. 10. To know what is expected of a leader. 11. More respect by others. 12. Blank. Would you like to see the Troop youth run? Why? 1. Yes, because if it is we have more power. 2. A balance of adult and youth run. 3. Yes, we learn more that way. 4. The youth do it. 5. Yes, it would help them. 6. Yes, to see their ideas. 7. Yes, they get thing done faster. 8. Yes because it gains respect and responsibility. 9. No. They are not mature at all. The older kids should be the leaders. 10. Yes, because then we can do what we want to do. 11. Yes. 12. Yes. We can learn more. Would you like to see the Patrol Method used? Why? 1. Yes, so not one person has to take control over everyone. 2. Dont understand. 3. Yes because it keeps things organized with the chain of command. 4. Yes, so it would be more fun. 5. No, because I dont know what it is. 6. Dont know. 7. Yes, so the patrols would run smoother. 8. Blank. 9. Yeah. Cobras are driving me nuts. 10. Yes because then the patrol can do what they want. 11. Yes. 12. I dont know. (Note: Cobras are the NSP who just joined the troop.) Why do you think boys join the Boy Scouts? 1. To have fun and learn about cool things and camping. 2. I think that boys join to go camping. 3. To have fun! 4. To have fun. 5. To have fun and learn stuff. 6. To have fun with their friends and have good life experiences. 7. To get Eagle. 8. Blank. 9. To have fun. 10. To have fun. 11. To have fun. 12. Because its fun. How would you rate the current Troop Program? (1 best, 5 worst) 1. 2 2. 3 3. 2 4. 2 5. 2 6. 2 7. 3 8. 4 9. 2 10. 3 11. 2 12. 2 What type of places would you like to visit on our outings? 1. River, sand dunes, rafting, kayaking. 2. I would like to go to either Philmont, or Florida sea base. 3. I would like to visit the Alamo. 4. Cedar Point. 5. I dont know. 6. Places like Boyne Mountain and Cedar Point. 7. Cedar Point, Six Flags, Disney Kingdom(?). 8. Blank. 9. Cedar Point. 10. Cedar Point, Isle Royal. 11. Grand Canyon, Niagara Falls. 12. Cedar Point, Boyne Mountain, etc. More fun places. What is your favorite thing about the Troop? 1. Going camping every month. 2. The diversity of the boys. 3. The boys, they are all nice and good. 4. The people in it. 5. People I know are in it. 6. It is not a huge or small troop now. 7. Being with friends. 8. Meet a lot of friends. 9. Going on trips. 10. Campouts. 11. The guys are like friends. 12. Indoor camping and fun. What is your least favorite thing about the Troop? 1. The annoying little kids. 2. The immature behavior by some of the boys. 3. Organization, we dont have enough. 4. Blank. 5. Meetings last long. 6. When the boys dont listen. 7. Loud kids. 8. Blank 9. We dont get enough done at meetings. 10. The meetings. 11. Dont home. (?). 12. The Cobras. The numbers represent a particular boy. That is response #4 is the same boy for all questions. Some of the responses are interesting. For example, the same boy who responded "Don't know or care" about what he would like the troop to do is the same boy who stated that he wanted to receive more respect by others as a leader!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Just like adults who make to many diecisions for the boys, SPLs and PLs need to let the boys they lead make their decisions too. A 2nd Class Scout has to have picked out his patrol site. A PL and SPL as well as the adult leaders, should provide him the opportunity to do so.

Eamonn and others, you did hear about the soul food restaurant that Sammy Davis Jr. and Ella Fitzgerald opened in the late '60s or early '70s didn't you? They had a marvelous location, great food but had a hard time attracting customers. After a few years of losing money it had to close. It seemed that nobody wanted to eat at Sam 'n Ella's.

I just wanted to know if anyone has any idea if these numbers are accurate.

Can anyone vouch or comment on the following: (the format, while confusing is: Yr Cub Scouts (6-10 year-olds) Boy Scouts (11-17 year-olds) Explorers/ Venturers (14-20 year-olds) Total Traditional Members Learning for Life/Exploring Total Youth Members 1986 1,972,547 1,043,798 1,020,473 4,036,818 N/A 4,036,818 1987 ????? 1988 2,147,699 1,025,370 1,055,267 4,228,336 N/A 4,228,336 1989 2,155,976 1,007,871 1,083,068 4,246,915 N/A 4,246,915 1990 2,167,062 1,010,857 740,753 3,918,672 374,314 4,292,986 1991 2,145,870 988,270 367,262 3,501,402 648,257 4,149,659 1992 2,110,633 975,589 367,093 3,453,315 696,833 4,150,148 1993 2,067,279 979,192 380,903 3,427,374 737,799 4,165,173 1994 2,031,282 978,608 393,444 3,403,334 784,689 4,188,023 1995 837,407 (Learning for Life) 1996 2,095,811 1,000,078 422,366 3,518,255 880,422 4,398,677 1997 2,152,387 1,016,383 455,268 3,624,038 949,583 4,573,621 1998 2,171,987 1,023,442 188,010 3,383,439 1999 2,166,289 1,023,691 202,164 3,392,144 1,373,615 4,765,759 2000 2,114,420 1,003,691 233,858 3,351,969 1,589,988 4,941,957 2001 2,043,478 1,005,592 276,434 3,325,504 1,697,701 5,023,205 2002 2,000,478 1,010,791 293,323 3,304,592 1,721,957 5,026,549 2003 1,914,425 997,398 288,395 3,200,218 1,555,226 4,755,444

Our OA lodge youth revel in the green (khaki green?) uniforms. A few of the older boys wear them and the younger ones emulate them. Anything to be different! My soon to be 14 year old son has a green one that he always wears to OA and usually to the troop meetings. I have asked that he wear the tan shirt for COH and other "formal" occasions when he should actually try to look uniform in his uniform.

Regardless of ones physical fitness, don't forget the horses. A physically fit 250 lb male is just as taxing to a poor horse as a 5ft 4inch fat slob 250 lb male. I believe Philmont has a separate weight requirement for riding. And don't forget, no gay tri-atheletes either!

For our Sunday morning meal, our troop likes to cook "eggs in a bag." Fairly easy, likable and no mess to clean up. However, eggs and boys hygiene don't mix well. When instructing new scouts I always give them my egg speech. I gather all the newbies together and ask them where eggs come from. They all chime in "from chickens." Yes, very good. What part of a chicken? I get some confused looks, some mention hens, and then finally someone blurts out, "from their butt!" Yes! So after you wash your hands and then handle eggs, don't touch any other food! Put your cheese, onions, etc. in the bag BEFORE you touch your eggs. This works much better than talking about salmonella. The boys don't quite comprehend the effects of salmonella poisoning but butts are something they can grasp!

A latrine with flush toilets? I think that is an oxymoron. In my book, a latrine is a hole in the ground that is used as a receptacle for human waste. At our council's scout camp (one of two), all have latrines but one industrious troop donated the labor and materials to install flush toilets and a pair of sinks with running water. All troops have the same opportunity to provide the same.

Why do conservatives always see great secret clans of activists trying to force them to change their ways? BW and FOG, get off your moral high horse! Everyone, take a completely hypothetical situation that I believe illustrates a fundamental difference in thinking that many of us have. Let's say a recent decision by the BSA states: "In a return to REAL traditional values, the BSA believes that uncircumsized males cannot serve as proper role models to our male youth. Therefore, openly uncircumsized males are not allowed BSA membership. However, the BSA will not actively seek out proof of circumcision for our adult male leaders." The debate rages on with quotes of scripture, political correctness, tradtional values, letting units set their own policy, morality, etc. It is a devisive issue and a few uncircumsized Eagles get booted out. Now, how would our tipless and "tipped" and female Scouters respond to such an edict? I think the "if you don't share these values you are shameful in keeping membership" argument is hogwash for this example. Similarly, for the gay issue I feel the same. I feel the BSA policy with respect to gay leaders is misguided. I also feel that it falls in the "be careful to pick your battles" arena as low on the priority list wrt my involvement and my sons. The BSA should look at the character of their leaders, specifically at their actions. In defense of the BSA, letting the COs have total responsibility to determine character goes to far because many events include multiple CO units. However, if we exclude members to the least restrictive guidelines of all COs, I don't think anyone would make the grade. Some feel the bland act of just "being" gay is immoral (even celibate gays). Others can't comprehend why a loving gay relationship would be considered anything but moral. Why does the BSA choose to make this a particular issue of choice? I'll be crass, I think it boils down to money. If gay leaders were allowed, I feel the BSA feels that membership would shrink and certain COs would squawk. Can't say that I disagree. I also believe that this will change (and not soon enough!). Now on to bigger and more important issues!

Troop size: 32 (youth) SPL: 13 (first term) ASPL: 13 (first term) PL: 13 (regular), 13 (regular), 11 (NSP), 11 (NSP) Oldest Scouts 15 (2) 14 (1) multiple 13 year olds.

Bylaws? Put me down in favor of having something down in writing with respect to some items but also being very careful not to conflict with any existing BSA policy and trying to use common sense as much as possible. Take uniforms for example. The BSA guidelines are very easily understood. However, some units make their own rules such as "Troop XX considers the full uniform to consist of the BSA khaki shirt, hat and neckerchief only. Scout pants are not required." A nice policy that is dead wrong. However, many adults and boys don't realize that fact and so in our Troop "bylaws" we reiterate what constitutes a uniform. Is it redundant? Yes. Is it needed? That's debatable. My take is that it doesn't hurt. Now, I like to catalog somewhere how the unit collects dues and how much they are, what night and where we generally meet, specific qualifications that he boys have decided for particular youth leadership positions, etc. These can be contained in an info guide, bylaws, or whatever one wants to call them. Personally, we have and info guide for the troop and bylaws for the committee.

Should adults wear a patrol patch? No. Do I? Yes. Actually, one of my SM shirts has a patrol patch (my "activity" field uniform that I take on outings) and one does not (my "field" field uniform for more formal meetings such as COHs, roundtables, etc.). By the way, not only adults, but the SPL and ASPL should not wear a patrol patch. Now, on the magnitude of BSA faux pas, I rank this as very low on the importance list.

The NRA touts more than rifles these days.

In our troop (and most I believe), the Scout schedules his BOR via the Advancement Chair. Just the other month, a Scout scheduled his BOR and then participated in it (and passed mind you) BEFORE he had his SM conference and Show Scout Spirit requirements signed off. The advancement chair was not present (illnes) but three committee members (registered committee members is a redundant statement) were present. As SM, I was not to happy. The BOR SHOULD have reviewed his BS Handbook, found out not all requirements had been signed off and politely excused the boy. There is a check and balance being preformed by the SM conference and the BOR. The BOR, which should not include any SAs or the SM (or their spouses for that matter - my preference, not the BSAs) should try to get feedback from the Scout on how the SM and SAs are performing their duties. I'd like to add somewhat to BW statements about a SM conference. Not only does it allow the SM to get to know the Scout better, it allows the Scout to get to know the SM better. That is why as SM, I usually have an SA give my sons their SM conference, not me. Of course, less formally, I have a "SM conference" on an almost weekly basis, if not daily, with them. P.S. Your pies are awesome!(This message has been edited by acco40)