CA_Scouter

Dungeness crab and sourdough!

I met 'Scoutmaster Ron' ( I think that was his id ) on the trail in Little Yosemite on the way to Half Dome last year. We had exchanged pm's about the hike, but I had no idea that his hike would coincide with my troop's hike ( he was there just with his son ). We happened to be taking a dip in the river and he saw our Troop tshirts, we started talking, and then figured out who each other was... that was kinda fun...

... continuing with Eagle Scout Advancement but addressing LEADERSHIP as opposed to POR. I feel strongly that an Eagle scout should show appropriate leadership skills, ie making good decisions, leading his troop/patrol, initiating activity, helping out in various situations etc. I have a young Life scout who is a merit badge monster. He is 13 and has close to 20 merit badges already.. He has held the Librarian and Scribe POR in the troop and has done a good job. I think, but cannot confirm, that Dad is helping him out on the POR stuff. But I will take him at his word and try not to think about that. My problem is that he is reluctant to take charge of anything regarding the rest of the scouts. He has not held a PL/APL position, but is now being thrust into the spotlight as our ASPL is moving away and he is moving up to fill the position. I am trying to work with him ( and 2 other reluctant scouts ) to move outside their 'comfort zone' and work on their leadership skills. Have you had similar experiences? What specifically have you done with scouts to get them to step up? I'm looking for real world examples. thanks

I too find that school gets in the way of Scouting. If only people would get their priorities straight.... :-)

Yea, as draconian as it may sound, we don't permit 'sticks' either. Its been my experience that when sticks appear, a spontaneous burst of a chapter in 'Lord of the Flies' breaks out. :-) I found it too hard to administer... sticks are allowed if you have xx feet clearance, point on the ground, etc... uggh. Just so much easier to say no. And yes, you can say 'no'. But I am the Scoutmaster. If you cannot get the other adults to agree, then you are probably out of luck.

Outside has always had a problem with the BSA. Some years back, they did an article on Philmont alleging drug use and homosexuality was rampant. I know some guys who canceled their subscription over that. I agree with Sequoia and the Beav... amateurish, high schoolish journalism. Anecdotal blatherings... and the kicker... she teaches journalism? To whom, the writers at the National Enquirer? Perhaps the best response is to inform Outside that we are using that article to line the bottom of the bird cage. :-)

Stosh, what I find offensive is your trivializing the efforts I have made in trying to work with this boy over the last few years. ( Its so easy to throw darts via anonymous email, isn't it? ) He HAS had every opportunity that every other scout has had and then some. He has been given every break in the book and multiple opportunities to correct his behavior, probably more than any other scout. And if I had given up on him, then I would have expelled him from the troop. I did not do that, but he crossed the boundries of acceptable conduct this time. He is ultimatly responsible for his own actions and suspension seemed to be the appropriate consequence. This is one of those items that 'Scouts has to offer'. The lesson of personal responsibility.

"Here is a boy who needs what Scouts has to offer." I used to think that, but the kid has to be constantly reminded to keep his hands to himself, not throw things at people, stop goofing around, etc... He's been in my charge for two years, and the behaviors have not changed. We've tried very hard to work with him but Mom is a bit flaky and inconsistent with getting him to meetings, etc.. We are still waiting to see if 'what Scouts has to offer' makes any difference with him... I'm sad about it.. :-( Stosh, your comments are not appreciated. I have worked harder with this boy than with any other kid in the troop. We had a discipline issue a few years back with another kid which we handled in much the same way and that kid turned his attitude around and is now my SPL. You should consider hiking a mile in my size 13's next time before you shoot off a comment like that.

UPDATE Interviewed all the parties involved last night. Our campsite was very close to the shotgun range, the clays were found outside the roped off area behind the berm that encloses the range. The boys were looking for items to decorate the gateway they had built for the campsite. These items weren't 'stolen' but looks like they were 'misses' that flew outside the boundry of the range. After evaluating the interviews, we narrowed down the responsible parties to S, P and one other scout J who participated in the bathroom incident. ASM's and I met to discuss appropriate discipline, taking into account that S has an extensive history of annoying behavior ( pushing, grabbing, sticks, rocks and general mischevious behavior done in bad taste ) along with an incident 2 years ago where he threw a can of repellent and hit another scout. We then convened the PLC, presented the facts to them, and left them alone so they could hash it out. The PLC came back with the recommendation to expel S, put P on a three month probation with no rank advancement during that time, and J will get an official warning and three month probation. In our troop, probation means that any further behavior problem will result in an immediate suspension. The ASM's and I discussed expelling S also, but we settled on a suspension from all troop activities for the remainder of 2007, and parental supervision for all troop meetings, activities and campouts for the calendar year 2008. Before S is permitted back to the troop, he will have to present himself to the committee for reinstatement and explain/show what actions he and his family have taken to correct the behavior issues and guarantee the safety of his fellow scouts. He will forfeit his Chaplains Aide position ( yea, I know ), his Totin' Chip and Firemn' Chit. Mom is single with the Dad not involved, so she asked if a friend or church member could fill in for her on campouts. We are considering it, but I would require YPT and G2SS at a minimum. We agreed on the discipline with P and J. We spoke to the PLC about going along with the suspension instead of expulsion, and they eventually agreed ( if they were adamant on the expulsion, we would have done that, but they were a little wishywashy). One of the issues with S is that nobody on the PLC likes him, and some of the members just wanted to get rid of him. Presented this to the Committee and they voted 11-3 in favor ( yes, its the SM's decision, but I still wanted the backing of the Committee ). This of course will be documented, letters sent to the families, copies put in their 'file', etc.etc. I put in a call to my scout exec yesterday to discuss but he has not returned my call yet. Regarding the troop going to the adults ... yea we pound that into them pretty regularly, but they still neglect to do so at times. Also, based on the timeline of this incident, it looks like the bulk of it occurred in a matter of minutes, so that may have been a factor. Troop will also be addressed next week regarding the 'courteous and kind' aspects of the Scout Law with regard to people one doesn't particularly care for. We did have one scout who stopped another scout from retaliating on S, so we recognized him for his calm under pressure. S's Mom did not object to the suspension and thanked us for our lienency. A very trying week.

Clays, balls, sticks, rocks, small rodents, whatever... that matters not where they found them or why. What matters is the reaction of the parties involved. The knife throwing matters a little more than the clays. Ganging up on one kid matters a little more than the clays. I'm not missing the point, I'm focusing on the most egregious of their actions. I am meeting with everyone tonight. I'll try to provide an update tomorrow.

Re: the last few comments on the clays being found at the range. I never indicated they were found at the range. Yall are speculating instead of evaluating the facts as I know them and have presented them. The issue of the clays is relatively minor compared to the subsequent actions of the parties involved ( please don't argue this point, its not the focus of this thread ). I'm looking for comment on what actions you would recommend taking with S, P and G. thanks

Hi All, This was a report to me from my ASM from an incident that occurred at summer camp. I am soliciting your opinions on how you would handle this situation. I am deliberatly not indicating what I'm planning to do, as I don't want to interrupt the free flow of ideas, so to speak... :-) Would appreciate that the comments be focused on 'what to do now', as opposed to 'you should have done xxxx differently'. What's done is done, now I need to deal with this mess. Looking forward to your helpful and insightful comment. =============================================================== This is a basic summary of the accounts the boys gave me after the Knife throwing incident. Two adults in camp ADULT2 and I. Dinner clean up and cobbler serving was in process when the incident took place approximate time was 9:40 The only part I actually witnessed was the boys keeping S and G apart and then the discussion with P, G, S and K. The incident appears have started over Clay targets. P, WT, S, and couple other boys found Clay targets off a trail earlier in the day. Each boy appears to have known how many clays each had. When clays went missing out of some of the tents Stephan was accused of taking them. Because of the missing clays the group of boys, I'm not sure who was involved besides P hatched a plan to lock S in the bathroom. He entered the bathroom with another/others and they promptly ran out. They tried to shut the door behind them. S tried to block the door and had his arm knocked which caused him to drop the clays he was carrying. S then goes back to his tent and the other boys when across camp to the tent of P and G. Tents where at opposite sides of camp. About 150 feet apart. Dining area was in middle of area. Sometime around 9:40pm S crosses camp and stands in tent of P and G on P'S sleeping bags. P and G are laying on their sleeping bags. Not sure who call who out, but a challenge to fight was issued and words exchanged. S leaves and one of the scouts calls S a pussy, it was not S or G,(ADULT2 has the boy's name. S pulled his dinner knife out of his pocket and threw it toward the group of boys at the tent. It is not clear if it bounced on the ground and then hit G or if it hit him directly. The knife was throw from a distance of apx 25-30ft. Knife was given to ASM upon return from camp today. Knife is standard household kitchen knife. It is not very sharp but is heavy. S then ran through camp as I was calling for people to come get cobbler, the group was chasing after him saying you hit G. ADULT2 and I caught up with the group at S tent, Another scout was keeping G and S apart and P was telling S to say he was sorry. ADULT2 and I sent G, P and S to their tents. G had a small welt on right temple about 2 inches from his eye, I did not see any broken skin. I suspect that the knife hit with the handle bottom which was blunt. P gave this account, G agreed, but I don't know if G was at the bathroom. This needs to be confirmed. S'S account had him not stealing the clays, but just hiding them from the boys. He also admitted to throwing the knife. K came to me after the parties had been talked to and said that earlier that day S had held the knife to his throat. Due to the uproar in the camp and the late hour I did not ask K for any of the details. K should be interviewed. Camp director was inform of incident. I called SM and left message about the incident and the plan to remove S from camp. I called S's Mom to come pick him up, but her car was with her daughter. She sent person from her church to pick S up. She did not travel up with Church person to get S. She faxed release form to District office and Camp office about 12:30 and call me to say she had. S exited our camp about 12:45am with the Program Director and another Staff member as his escort. ADULT2 and I have not discussed this any further with the boys. I did check on G later in the evening and in the morning to make sure he was ok and did not show any sign of a concussion

So he was waiting in line. So WHAT? Is it now illegal for a mayor to stand in line to purchase a new toy? Give the man a break. He did the deed HIMSELF. He did not put some city paid employee out there to hold his place in line. And I don't give a hill of beans if he was on city time. Persons of his high rank are ALWAYS on city time. What little private time they do have is constantly and consistently interrupted all hours of the day or night. I've done a lot of work for cities, counties and other public agencies, and yes, there are slugs out there, but most of the people I've worked with are concientous, hard working folk, who really care about what they deliver to the public. Please also remember that the media will excerpt and edit any response the mayor makes, and also remember that the mayor was not quoted, it was reported second-hand by mohawk boy. If PH hadn't kicked out the scouts, yall wouldn't bat an eye on this.

We were in charge of activities this year at Rainoree. Had a great time as rain threatened the entire day. We kept 'em busy until 4pm, then at 4:30 it started sprinkling. We setup our shanty town ( tarps, tarps and more tarps ). By 6 it was a-pourin' and the director canceled the campfire. By 7 some guy in a beard was walking animals by two by two towards a large wooden ship..... I love it 'rainoree', 'toad soaker'... gotta add those terms to my vocabulary.

Class of 75, currently SM. (Brother Class of 77, son class of '08??? )

Hey, I've got an idea. Next time a parent asks for a SM conference or BoR, kindly oblige by arranging one FOR THE PARENT. Do not include the scout.

Well, I don't want to brag, but we captured a Bigfoot on an outing a couple of years ago. Actually, I think he captured us, because we were frozen in fear, but that's beside the point. What most people don't know is that these are highly intelligent and evolved creatures. So much so, in fact, that he showed up at our next scout meeting and did a Skillbase on wilderness survival. We wanted to sign him up as a MB counselor, but, shoot, we can only find his footprints now and then.

Beav, it it was 'what we say' things would be much different around here. Lemme explain... The problem here is the anonymity of email. Persons feel emboldened to write things in an email they wouldn't dare say to your face. I get this all the time at work, and I'm sure many of you all do too. Its just too easy to flame someone via email when you don't have to look them in the eye when you say it. I'm all for Beavah's suggestions, and many moons ago I posted these same or similar comments here as well. We are all Scouters and should be courteous and kind. Ed, I understand where you are coming from, but in my mind it doesn't excuse being discourteous. If you had a scout violating one of the Scout laws, you would deal with him on it, so the same should apply to the adults. oooh... I feel a scoutmaster minute coming on....

We have elections. Candidates must submit a permission slip from their parent, so both know there is a commitment to the position ( i.e.. parent has to drive the kid around some more ). We have each candidate make a speech, usually its about 20 seconds ( i.e. 'vote for me' ), but it gets them out of the chair... this year, the SM staff asked some hypotheticals about troop policy, how would you react if this happened, etc... Term is one year, eligibility for SPL is First Class, PL you must be breathing. Yes, we have SM approval but I've never denied anyone. This year we did the PL elections on one night, and the SPL the next week. Yes, we have notified the troop this year that non-performance may be cause for removal from office. We had several underperforming leaders last year so we felt we had to take a stand for the good of the troop. We also put together JLT training and mandated that for the new leaders. This has been the method for longer than I've been associated with the troop, and it seems to work pretty well.

I've posted this information before, but it may be helpful to repeat. About 2 years ago, I had a scout with behavioral problems go overboard at a campout. Was not following troop rules, made an obscene comment to a young lady in another campsite ( while in uniform ), was openly defiant when we sat him down to talk about it, and took out his frustrations by taking a knife from the patrol box and stabbing the patrol cutting board, and vandalized a fellow scouts sleeping pad. We had some problems with behavior in the past, and this was finally the kicker. I suspended him from the troop for 90 days, then required that a parent attend all meetings and outings for the next 3 months. I was fortunate that the parents, though not happy with me, were at least reasonably supportive during that time and step-Dad came along on the next three campouts, including his first-ever backpacking trip. He did not hover over the scout, but did step in once when he was starting to get angry again over a small incident. For me, this had a successful outcome. I've not had any more behavioral problems with this scout, he recently made Life, and now he is my SPL ( he's doing OK at SPL, still a little light on the leadership skills, but not too bad ). So I may come across here as a little heavy-handed, but I was firm in my belief that I couldn't compromise the safety of other scouts, and that I wouldn't permit him to be such a distraction that it would be detrimental to the troop. I hope never to have to do such a thing again, but won't hesitate if the situation merits it.

We used to be a car-camping troop. No trailer, but at least 2 if not 3 pickup loads. When I became SM, I pushed the backpacking idea. The PLC took to it so now we treat every trip as a backpacking trip, even if we drive right up to the campsite. We purchased the lightweight gear, have done a multitude of skillbases on equipment and clothing selection and now camp setup and take down is much quicker, leaving us more time for hiking, activities, and free time. Just this weekend, we were car camping at a local lake and another troop came in with probably 4+ truckloads of equipment, and they only stayed a single night. Box after box, backpacks so full you think they were staying for a week or two. We just watched them hump it up the hill ( because you couldn't park right next to the site ) with amazement. fyi - We also push the Leave No Trace principles...

Ed, it goes something like this: "Mr. XXXXXX, your son certainly gave us a scare last week, deliberately leaving camp without telling anyone where he was going. His actions caused a great expense to the public, and gave the rest of us mild coronaries. Unfortunately, the consequence of his action is that we are going to require that Mr. Dad or Mrs. Mom attend any scout outings for the foreseeable future. We simply cannot take another chance that he might wander away from camp, and we need your direct and constant supervision of him. Perhaps some time in the future, when he has re-established our trust, he can earn the priviledge of attending scout outings on his own." And yes, the parents are ultimately responsible for his behavior, and a requirement to attend all scout outings with their son will ensure they are. I've had a scout in my troop exhibit bad behavior, and I actually suspended him from the troop for 90 days, then required that a parent attend scout outings for the next 3 months. He returned and has shown much improved behavior and just made Life.

RK, Regarding: "but unfortunately, it wouldn't teach the boy or his dad anything. " I beg to differ. It teaches the boy that there are consequences for one's actions, it teaches him that the priviledge of attending a scout campout is earned and that the priviledge can be revoked, it teaches the Dad that his son still needs close parental support and supervision. If I was SM of that troop, I would: 1) have a long talk with the Scout and his family regarding rules, behavior expectations, buddy system etc. 2) have a long talk with the troop and adult staff on buddy system, ypt, etc. 3) take a very long nap so that I would stop shaking in fear that I came so close to losing a boy 4) Thank God he was ok. Again. And again. And again.....

I just read where the Scout left on his own because he was homesick and a lot of his buddies did not go on this particular campout, so he was planning to hike down to the highway and hitch hike home. I am not making this up. Check cnn.com Methinks Dad has been awarded a permanent invite to all future campouts that his son wants to attend. At least that's how it would be in my troop.

24 Scouts 1 SM (me!) 4 ASM 3 asm's work with patrols 1 handles summer camp and floats SM works with PLC and Life to Eagle 1 Venture Patrol 3 Regular Patrols 15 Committee Members 3 15/16yr olds ( 2 Life ) The rest 11-14