BetterWithCheddar

@scoutldr, I don't disagree. The SM's behavior, as described, is abhorrent. However, you also have the SM claiming the 11 y/o scout issued the first death threat. Would you really want the OP to risk their son's membership in the BSA's kangaroo court? Both parties need to move on and be done.

I'm a pretty frugal guy, but $800 isn't a significant barrier to my son's well-being. You could ask tactfully about transferring the funds to a different unit and see what happens. Otherwise, be prepared to move on. I would take a few days to cool down and then probably take no further action unless you truly felt there were YP issues in the former unit. Otherwise, you could find yourself in a messy back-and-forth with someone bent on torpedoing your involvement in Scouting. Embrace the fresh start but also have realistic expectations about your child's Scouting experience. I don't think there are many top-notch units left. Best care scenario, you find one where a few well-meaning parents are doing their best to get kids outside.

I would really like to see a "Where are they now?" article on Mike Surbaugh.

The absurdity of this article caught my attention this week: Prank with pencil gone wrong at Stoney Creek Elementary school | Charlotte Observer Does this mean 5th grade in inherently unsafe, the teacher was negligent, and students shouldn't use pencils anymore? Of course not. This poor behavior is so far outside the norm that it's impossible to take into account. The prankster's family should be the only one involved in the lawsuit, but I'm sure other parties will be lumped in anyway.

When my son was 8, he broke his arm in a playground fall that occurred while he was participating in a day camp run by a well-known community organization. He fell just 2 feet but landed on his arm awkwardly. Our health insurance company wanted every detail about the situation so they could prove that << well-known community organization >> was liable and avoid playing the claim. It got to the point where we considered paying the $4,000 ER bill out of pocket because we didn't want to bring harm to the organization (who also provides us with reliable after-school childcare during the school year). They eventually dropped their attempt, but our deductible is pretty high, and we wound up covering the entire bill anyway. Given the extent of our troubles for a standard playground fall, I can't imagine the insurance nightmare this situation will be with a 12-year-old aggressor, a leader out vaping, and a wounded national organization that's just a walking claim-paying machine.

This feels like more than a big kids vs. little kids issue. Accidents happen, but the police report noted 2 punches, a push, and a stomp. That has a lot more to do with the aggressor than it does the age gap or the game they were playing.

It's all yours! It's a common phrase it my region used to question whether a benefit is worth the effort. In the case of Scouting, I think we can all agree the juice is really sweet, but our hands occasionally get sore from squeezing.

To that SE, I would say "be careful what you wish for," because there are many leaders out there (myself included), who are doing our best but often wonder if the juice is really worth the squeeze. Per the article: The soft, sphere-shaped projectile was not the problem here. This seems more like a case of a 3rd or 4th grader just being a huge a-hole. @skeptic, you've touched a nerve here because this is my biggest fear as a volunteer. As hard as we try to keep things safe and fun, there are constantly factors beyond our control working against us. And yes, we can eliminate activities perceived to be more dangerous. And yes, we can have more leaders present. But then what are we really left with?

That's a completely reasonable hypothesis.

Once again, I think youth sports are the winner of SA's recent action. They manage to stay squeaky clean while Scouting has been stuck in the mud since before COVID. The two aren't perfect substitutes (as this thread has established), but they still compete for a finite pool of time, energy, and money. My son is just barely hanging on to Cub Scouts. Sometimes I wonder if he's doing it just to humor me. Most of his favorite den mates dip in and out for youth sports (as does he, occasionally). The few regulars are mainly "indoor kids." They've tried team sports. It wasn't for them. Now they're in Cub Scouts because they like being part of a team, but the stakes are much lower. I'd like my son to stick with Scouting, but I'm running low on energy. One thing this thread hasn't acknowledged is that sometimes parents just want to see their kid win. I'll surmise it's especially true for fathers and their sons. There's just something primal about seeing your genes rise to the top. Even my wife, who is pretty well-grounded and considers herself above the fray, takes satisfaction in knowing that her son is better than so-and-so's son. This feeling probably drives spending more than most care to admit. With all of the membership changes of the past decade (of which I'm largely supportive), pretty much anyone can become an Eagle Scout if they attend enough merit badge seminars on the weekend. Membership is 1/3 of what it was at the turn of the century, yet the number of new Eagle Scouts per year has remained fairly consistent. For those parents who value excellence in youth programming (and those too sheepish to admit it), it's become more difficult to point to the Eagle Scout award as a mark of superiority. I'm not implying that Scouting is bad (still a huge advocate) or that it needs to change (it's still pretty good), but it's not meeting the needs of some high-achieving families.

Yeah, this is really bad (if true). If you're going to solicit large donations for an endowment, there's a professional and moral obligation to ensure they're protected to the fullest extent. Beyond the endowments, there has probably been a working-class family in every council who gifted their own modest estate in order to have a new health lodge or shooting sports range built at their favorite camp. And now that camp is gone. I'm just glad they're no longer here to see their life's work squandered.

The knee was already bent with the membership changes and Citizenship in Society merit badge. Now it's being hyperextended the other way. In between it filed for bankruptcy. Let's face it, we're really limping along here.

This was my biggest issue. It catered to one side and felt very reactionary. I'm not thrilled about the roll-back either for the same reasons. The damage is done. There are no winners.

At some point, the push to make Scouting safer becomes self-defeating. I've only been back in Scouting for 4 years now as a parent, but I've heard more experienced volunteers lament that updates to the Guide to Safe Scouting has led to the cancelation of events or the omission of popular activities. We showed up to one district event last year only to learn that the sling shot station has been replaced by a coloring station at the last minute.

Per the OA website: Once contributed, the funds will stay in perpetuity within the OA Endowment, whose spending policy allows for the growth of the funds to provide support to key leadership development initiatives within the OA. 1915 Society | Order of the Arrow, Scouting America

I like the OA. I've got lots of good memories from my youth and the admonition has stuck with me as an adult. That said, I wouldn't be upset if it folded. Lax membership standards and concerns over Native American cosplay have left the OA in rough shape. One underrated benefit of ending the OA program would be a boost in Venturing participation. Right now, they function as parallel senior scout programs, but a strong chapter could easily function as a Crew and continue providing service to its district and local camps. If the OA were to continue in present form, I'd consider eliminating elections in favor of a universal standard such as: 50 Nights of Camping 50 Hours of Community Service Star Rank Completion of Ordeal

This was a pretty good den meeting, considering the low cost and prep time. I highly recommend for future Ben Den Leaders. Save it for midway through the year when you're burned out and the weather limits your options.

One of the surest signs of membership decline is the lack of Scouters coming to this forum to debate adult square knot insignia. I swear that used to be every other thread around here pre-COVID. 😛

Hello Fellow Scouters: Due mostly to my own lax planning, I'm pulling together plans for tomorrow's Bear den meeting. We'll be working on the "Roaring Laughter" elective adventure. Thankfully, it doesn't look like this one will require too much planning and it's a great activity for an indoor den meeting in the middle of winter. Requirements are as follows: Think about what makes you laugh. Discuss these with your den or family. Practice reading tongue twisters. Play charades with your den or family. Have a "funniest joke contest" with your den or family. Practice "run-ons" with your den or family. Has anyone successfully covered this elective with their den? Any tips for making this a memorable den meeting? - BwC

While I'd never push advancement hard, I think it's still a useful tool for attracting and retaining kids with a high need for achievement. Based on what the OP shared (Scout attends a very competitive high school, but hasn't advanced in 3 years), it sounds like the program might be failing him. Agreed, it doesn't make sense.

In keeping with the theme of the thread, we've had a good experience with youth basketball coaches. Some are great. Some are OK. None have been bad. Most of the youth coaches in the school district are just dads who played high school basketball. They're required to take a 2-hour coaching seminar in the Fall, but that mainly covers youth protection and first aid (not X's and O's). My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm. Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't. His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛). Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway. You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance. I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking. I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss. Is Scouting just not a great program anymore? 🤔 Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

Local councils and districts should host more events (like day camps or merit badge clinics) that are staffed by professionals and experienced volunteers. Strong units can continue with their existing program, but marginal units can piggy-back off these events to help deliver a more consistent, polished product to the youth they serve. The cost to participate should cover all expenses associated with that day's program (plus a small buffer). Most parents are willing to spend money on a good product. In approximate order of importance, factors influencing a family's participation in Scouting are: child's interest quality of the program family calendar / scare time cost

I think you've accurately captured the theme of the thread. Sure, cost is a factor in most decisions, but it's secondary to the child's interest and the family's limited time. At a primal level, many fathers want to see their sons succeed at sports in hopes of propagating their genetic line. Even when the odds aren't great, they press on. I say this tongue in cheek, but you know there is some truth to it. Agreed. This a big factor. The youth sports industry is motivated by profit to have a good product. Our family has had positive experiences with most camps, clinics, leagues, tournaments, etc.