Owls_are_cool

The good news is the scouts are sticking with scouting instead of leaving scouting for good. I too would like to know how these two scouts were treated differently than the other scouts. If the adult leaders are adding to the advancement requirements to make it harder for these two scouts to advance, then your COR must address the issue. On the other hand, if the parents are all about the Eagle Rank and they expect the troop to be centered their advancement, then it might be good that they left. 

I would meet with the COR and Committee chair of your troop and convey to them that you are bothered that these two scouts left. If this happened in my troop, I would be, as scoutmaster, evaluating my actions that could have caused scouts to leave. If I am doing something wrong, I would work to fix it. If I am expected to change the aims of scouting, then I have to let them go. 

@Momleader Have you contacted someone in your council office and asked them if it is okay to camp out of council? My unit had an idea to do a campout with webelos, so I contacted my District Executive to see if I can get her blessing and to make sure we are not stepping on other efforts to get webelos to camp. We got District blessing (and therefore Council blessing). So maybe your Council will like your idea.

We did 2 summer camps last summer and parents had to sign liability waviers for covid-19 for both before the scout can come to camp. 

I had scouts go to a camp outside of my Council (Montana) last summer. The Council that covers Wyoming requested a copy of our council insurance for my unit for my unit to go to this camp. This tells me that your insurance will apply to your unit, even if you go outside of the council.

Isn't it BSA policy that parents (or guardian) must attend meetings with their cubs? Maybe that was a rule the Pack I was associated with had. 

Irregardless, it is only the parent's responsibility to deal with their disruptive cub scout (and other behavioral problems). The pack can require the parent to either be present with their scout or they should find another pack. The Den leader has to focus on the program that benefits the group as a whole. No need for long Pack policy documents. Just remember that scout leaders are not allowed to discipline scouts, since that is the realm of parents. Scout leaders can kick out scouts if parents do not cooperate, however, remember that scouting is all about character development, so expulsion should be the last resort. Any investment of time with scouts like this is worth it over time.

When I am at a Troop Meeting or Campout with my son (usually I am the first there and last to leave), I start the two deep adult leadership the second another scout shows up and their parent has to stay until another scout leader appears. Parents that need adult children or cousins to take scouts to meetings (because of work, etc), always tell me who they have authorized to drop off and pick up their children. In this case the line starts when the scout arrives at a meeting our outing. Occasionally I pick up and return a scout home for a parent, so my son or another adult is with me to comply with regs and the line starts at pick up and drop off. I occasionally meet with scouts for advancement stuff at McDonalds or via Zoom, but the scout's parents must be there with me (or another adult leader of the troop). 

Other than my son, I am never alone with a scout in my troop outside of scouting. Outside of scouting, my son can be alone with anyone I deem as a parent safe to be alone with. If any of these persons are involved in scouting care should be taken to protect the BSA. Extended family that are in scouting seems okay. Friends and neighbors? In the end, they should practice two deep adult supervision or the buddy system to avoid one on one contact even outside of scouting. These rules will work to protect anyone supervising children inside or outside of scouting, so use it as much as possible...even within your own extended family.

39 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The way to recruit new Scouts is to build a program they want to join. Currently that is on local units and the district/council.

Local units need energetic and active programs. Training with knowledgeable volunteer willing to work with and mentor new Scouters is key. Online training does not allow for the interaction and explanation on why things are done a certain way. I have seen Scouters take online training, think they know better, and do their own thing which hurts the program, and retention.

Districts and Council need to have support mechanisms to promote program; training, camps, specialized equipment for rent, activities, etc. 

 

More later.

My district does put in a lot of time and energy in recruitment and they do get potential scouts directed to our units. When I was associated with a pack 3 years ago, the DE was able to double our pack size. Problem is after I left for the Boy Scouts with my son, the pack numbers fell significantly. So what Units do or not do has a huge impact in retention. The district and council levels cannot fix unit problems related to retention beyond being there for support. In the end, the quality of unit volunteers is important. The healthiest pack in my district has a cubmaster and leadership that has been doing those jobs for a long time. The packs that turn over leadership frequently struggle. 

I'm not sure what the solution is, but expecting the Council to be the solution is a bad expectation. They cannot train leaders that do not want to be trained. They cannot overcome leaders that cannot or will not put in the time into their Units. 

@InquisitiveScouter That is a lot higher salary than I expected. My expectations of him will be much higher now. Note that Montana does not have a Council fee. They have been upgrading camp facilities a lot over the past 5 years. I suspect Montana has permanent investment funds that helps fund the council on an annual basis. Out of the loop, so I do not know if they are running deficits or surpluses. 

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Fully agree. In a weird way, I believe that council fees will be good for councils.  Those fee will force councils to have more accountability to their Scouts and families.  You won't be able to lose the MBC applications 3 or 4 times because people won't accept it.

Question for a newbie to council politics: Who selects the Scout Executive who runs the Council? Is it some sort of council committee or is it a group higher up the chain? Is this a bottom up selection or is it top down?

Who selects the District Executive? A district committee or the council? 

If these are top-down decisions, then I highly think there is not much one can do to bring more accountability on behalf of customers. If it is bottom up, then many of us in the lower levels need to get involved beyond our local units. 

BSA would be smart to wave national and council fees for scouts in their first year. Get them hooked in and give parents up to a year to figure out how fundraising works for their scout. But the opposite is being done with the $25 initiation fee for new scouts. 

My troop is too small to have effective patrols, but for each activity that doesn't involve the SPL, I have the scouts elect a Patrol leader and try to get the patrol method going. This year my older scouts did a high adventure summer camp, while the younger scouts did a normal summer camp a month later. In Woodbadge, they talk about the stages of team development: forming, storming, norming, preforming, and finally disband. The group of younger scouts stormed most of the time making it the hardest camp I experienced. I couldn't let them alone as a group, because fights (physical and verbal) were constant. But they had to work as a group beforehand to decide what activities to do a camp as a group, work together on a service project, and so forth. 

Adults do have to interfere for safety reasons, but it is possible to leave most all of the decisions with the scouts as possible. I gave the patrol leader of the group the charge to earn the honor patrol award for camp and he got the group to get buy in. I also gave the patrol leader the service project challenge. 

The youngest scout (age 11) gave me the most trouble, like the two youngest scouts gave me some trouble the year before. I am finding that these scouts are maturing and developing in character. The patrol method has a role in that, so I am sticking with the method even though it is not pretty.

I like people thinking of innovations that can help troops and packs, however, I have some concerns with this. The goal I have with my troop is for my higher ranked scouts use the EDGE method to help the lower ranked scouts advance. It is great to help lower ranked scouts advance, but wouldn't this negatively impact the older scouts ability to develop their EDGE method skills? Isn't it better for a scout to get their "hands dirty", than to take online advancement classes? 

Merit Badges: I find myself wanting my son to sign up for online merit badges so he can advance in rank. But my concern is that he will be spoon fed information, instead of him having to research/explain/demonstrate the topic himself. I was asked to counsel a Weather MB at two canceled Camporees, and I was thinking I should have scouts research the requirements, themselves (easy as an internet search) and report back to me what they learned. I am thinking that this is better than lecturing scouts in a classroom. So while scouts are learning useful information about the weather, they are also learning how to investigate topics on their own.

Thoughts? 

1 hour ago, John-in-KC said:

The National Council forgot this, but it’s jobs should be

- Develop program and training materials for youth and adults.

- Develop and implement a compliance system (chartering, with further compliance at the council level)

- Manage recordkeeping. 

- Develop and provide professional service training to Councils.

I love scoutbook for tracking advancement. Hopefully, the national council is dedicating significant resources to moving my.scounting.org functions over to this platform. Camping and service logs were perfect in scoutbook two years ago and I think the change made this year was a step backwards. If they need alpha testers, I can volunteer to do that.

17 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

All the good words about Scouting methods are still  there - scattered about - if one knows what they mean taken together.  However,  decades have passed since they were combined in any coherent message - no chapter, no article, no check-list.  And the descriptions of methods are routinely contradicted by BSA statements by the unknowing "professionals":  "Patrols are one component of what we call youth-run, or youth-led, troop."   No, in Scouting, the youth-run troop is a component of the Patrol Method, and not the most important component at that.

BSA, as a bureaucracy, has done almost nothing  in decades to encourage use of The Patrol Method and nothing to discourage ignoring that method. Conclusion: ignorance or lack of interest. 

@TAHAWK thanks for this post. I was asked to be a scoutmaster 6 months after my son joined a troop, of which I was gone three months managing a little league baseball team. I totally see how it is easy for a new scoutmaster to get into a advancement-centric mode and the adults associated with the troop, who want their sons to become eagles, loved the troop run that way. I did not know any better, since I was never a scout in my youth.

Then I took a woodbadge course that opened my eyes to the patrol method. I listened to all of the scoutmastercg podcasts, which gave me a picture how youth led looks like and how adults are supposed support the program. So I changed my job description as Scoutmaster to align more with how scouting was done when scouting started. This got me removed as scoutmaster for a month (a scout was elected Senior Patrol Leader that a group of parents did not think was worthy of the position), then the troop split, so I was reinstated as scoutmaster. 

It seems to me that district/council/national are quite hands off on how troops are run, therefore, parents involved in the troop are the ones that oppose the patrol method, youth led, etc methodology the most. I agree that JTE should account for this better, but reviews from my district commissioner seems to be more thorough. Again, the troop has to make a decision to commit to JTE and commissioner reviews to align their program to how it should be run and many do not. 

I am proud of the scars I have taken on this, because I have seen growth in my scouts that stuck with my troop. 

I hope everyone is having (had) a good Labor Day Holiday. 

In Montana, the requirements for large gatherings was so much that my district had to cancel spring and fall camporees for scouts and summer day camp for cub scouts. But my unit has been able to do activities like camping, hiking, and service projects, because we are under the 50 person threshold. Normal summer camp was cancelled in WY, but we were able to switch to a camp in Montana later in the summer. 

With Fall Camporee canceled, scouts in my troop decided on an alternative campout, but that is in jeopardy, because we cannot get adults to help with two-deep leadership on such short notice for a campout that is two hours drive out of town. 

It certainly has been hard to work around such last minute changes to the program and parents of scouts sometimes cannot work these changes in the scouts schedules. On the positive side, this is teaching myself and my scouts the value of long term planning. Getting campouts scheduled over a year in advance and maybe have alternatives identified in event district events are canceled next year too. 

What have you learned from this year?

Wouldn't the attraction be merit badges? Scouts, families, and troops would come to town to get merit badges done and that is what would bring revenue to the town?

The best way to solve this problem is to transfer to another troop that approves this requirement correctly. Your scout better have good documentation on how he was active for 6 months...continuous or discontinuous, because new scoutmaster will have nothing to go by. But if your scout attends meetings and activities with the new troop, that will give the new scoutmaster confidence that your scout completed the requirement with the previous troop. 

Being active in a troop is a judgement call for the scoutmaster and we do not have his side of the story. I, myself, got into hot water with some adults associated with my troop, because they deemed I signed off of requirements too easily. All this stemmed from their judgement that a scout was not eagle worthy. Such conflicts can easily set a bad adult example for scouts, so I would do the troop transfer route instead of escalating this conflict. 

Hope it all ends well for your scout.

On 8/28/2020 at 7:42 PM, OLDRIFLE said:

We have several issues with the scoutmaster not following the BSA advancement rules. Who should I turn to when everyone in the K3 is OK with that?

I would like more details on how the BSA advancement rules are not being followed. Requirements seem to constantly change (though the guide to advancement not so much so), thus as newer Scoutmaster (and new to scouts BSA), I find occasional parent perceptions in conflict with the actual requirements and the guide to advancement. 

If you have already shown your scoutmaster the relevant section of the Guide to Advancement and the latest in requirements (though there are some grandfathering going on) and they still refuse to follow the rules, then bring it up to your district or council. However, they do not have much power, so changing troops (or lone scout) might be a better option. 

This distressing thread makes me appreciate being in Montana Council more. My District Executive does try to support units under her responsibility. Since I spend most of my time serving my unit as scoutmaster, maybe I am suffering (or is it enjoying?) from ignorance is bliss on what my council is doing. 

My council offers discounts at stores and council camps for units and the members of those units when the unit reaches fundraising thresholds for popcorn sales and ICL (FOS), so this is a carrot approach instead of the stick approach. As a result, the council does not charge scouts an annual fee. Montana Council might have significant trust funds to help fund the four camps in the state and council operations. Scouts get incentives to sell popcorn from the council (1/3 of the sales go to the council and about 1/3 goes to the unit), so this carrot approach helps with fundraising also. Last year, Montana Council changed the popcorn incentives (ignoring the district popcorn chairs input) and that reduced popcorn sales. The council learned from this and started adopting input from volunteers for this year. Montana Council seems to be customer (i.e. the units and scouts) oriented, for which I am grateful. 

My unit has been through a lot the last 5 years (2.5 years of which I have been involved). The key to getting back to health was a group of unit leaders going back to basics and support the scouting program for the scouts. This took time and dedication. The same can be done for districts and councils. Usually, they are starving for volunteers, so new blood can bring change quickly...as long as they remember who the customer is...the scout and units. Hoping this happens for the Councils being described in this thread.

How would we defer these items in scoutbook?

My troop did virtual troop meetings for 1-2 months, but I quickly wished I had a chance to train the scouts on how to use the technology to do a virtual meeting. I also realized that scouts spending the entire day doing virtual school, but not want to add another virtual event to their day, so participation on virtual meetings was lower than in person meetings. 

What COVID-19 did to my mindset is to spend less time in meetings and more time doing stuff in the outdoors. My troop even stopped meeting inside for the summer. I think the core scouts in my troop are liking this more. 

Patrol Method...there is nothing better to set a challenge in front of scouts on a campout or camp and watch them work through all the issues they encounter together. This something anything virtual cannot duplicate. Granted, my troop is small enough that only a patrol's worth of scouts show up at each meeting and event. If the SPL is there, he leads. If not, an Patrol leader is elected and leads the group for the activity. 

Long term impact on scouting? I think there will be two factions...one that will try to spend more time outside and another that will try to do everything at home and virtually (like Merit Badge Classes, etc). In my district, COVID-19 has reduced the number of scouts, because scouts cannot meet given adult leadership is struggling with technology, closed meeting spaces,  and cancellation of popular district events. This month, our fall camporee was cancelled, so my troop is headed to the mountains to camp with the bears instead. However, our mindset is in the minority.

A short update: 

The Chartering Organization removed from the committee the two parents causing trouble in my troop. Ideally, intense conflict resolution with a professional would have been better, but my gut says they would not come to the table. The two parents convinced other parents to join their faction and will be starting a new troop. So half of the active scouts will be leaving my troop. It is a sad day for me given the year and a half I invested in these scouts. Looks like I will return as scoutmaster and will put the pieces back together for the second time. The committee will be decimated with the loss of a number of people willing to do some work, so we'll have to find and train replacements. 

So I find myself looking back to see if I should have done something different to avoid all of this, but at root I took a stand against adult bullying of scouts and parents. I started to give back the reins of the troop to the scouts as the scout program dictates. Not popular with the faction, but I think I did the right thing. I am looking forward to a new start and challenge, however. 

The nice thing about Waze is that one can map any park or campground beforehand and have scouts explore the site using the app. For example, search "Melita Island Campsite 10" in the app. It will plot the location of this campsite on the map. Then scouts can follow the roads in the app to get to that point. In another park, I put in a mix of hiking trails and roads plus various locations in the park. Scouts can use it to navigate to various locations in the park...mostly by watching the pointer on the map. 

If no cell service, utility of this app in the wilderness is limited...as a number of others have already mentioned. 

@SSScout what GPS app was your wife using? I edit maps for Waze as a hobby and enjoy the challenge of getting the app to route better. Though i use the app more to determine my time of arrivals. I did map up a BSA camp we went to this year. They report some usefulness finding areas. 

Troop Leader Guide vol 1 ch 10 and vol 2 ch 12 and 13 has good stuff on service projects. Lots written on scouts leading this program with adults supporting.